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#2
12-24-2005, 02:07 PM
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Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
[ QUOTE ]
Bush was not as forthcoming in his wiretap admission the other day as he should have been. http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Espio..._Intelligence/ So just out of curiousity, at what point will conservatives be upset with this whole thing? I will admit, I am a moderate that leans to the left, so my tipping point was long ago. To me, it is clear Bush is willing to trample on whatever civil liberties it takes to prevent another 9/11. Now some of you may be in favor of that. He and other conservatives seem to think that longevity is the single most important thing in life. If that were true, I could move to any number of countries with more freedom and a higher life expectancy, though I would likely pay higher taxes. America is great because of the Constitution. I, for one, would rather assume a slightly larger risk of a terrorist attack than have civil liberties trampelled on repeatedly. If people keep justifying anything Bush does in the name of preventing terrorism, where does it stop? If he declares martial law is that OK? That would likely reduce the likelihood of another attack. Help me understand why there is not the outrage on this issue I think there should be. [/ QUOTE ] This administration has done nothing that any other administration since the passage of FISA in what...1978? In fact the controls put in by the administration surpass those of any other administration. The Senate intelligence committee was briefed in great detail no less than 4 times and no one, including the Honorble (cough) Nancy Pelosi raised any objection. This is just another off target attack by Dems desperate in their fear that if Iraq continues to go well they are SOL in 2006. 
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#3
12-24-2005, 02:33 PM
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Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
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At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far? [/ QUOTE ] Obviously, much further. Maybe never.
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#4
12-24-2005, 02:38 PM
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Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
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I, for one, would rather assume a slightly larger risk of a terrorist attack than have civil liberties trampelled on repeatedly. [/ QUOTE ] Which civil liberties did you enjoy prior to the Bush administration that you now find yourself incapable to exercise? If you can answer this question with any degree of honesty, then perhaps this conservative (me) will admit Bush has gone too far.
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#5
12-24-2005, 04:07 PM
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Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I, for one, would rather assume a slightly larger risk of a terrorist attack than have civil liberties trampelled on repeatedly. [/ QUOTE ] Which civil liberties did you enjoy prior to the Bush administration that you now find yourself incapable to exercise? If you can answer this question with any degree of honesty, then perhaps this conservative (me) will admit Bush has gone too far. [/ QUOTE ] History has shown us time and time again that once we get to that point, it will be too late. It really scares me that people think the way you do. Oops, we are already there: "The billed, named the Ohio Patriot Act is so restrictive on civil rights that it authorizes police to arrest anyone that refuses to give up their personal information when questioned without a warrant, or a plausible reason to be questioned. In addition, anyone using public transportation would be required to show photo identification. Anyone who refuses will also be arrested." SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS, SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS Somehow I doubt anything will change your mind.
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#6
12-24-2005, 04:13 PM
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Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!
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#7
12-24-2005, 04:28 PM
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Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
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History has shown us time and time again that once we get to that point, it will be too late. [/ QUOTE ] Please then, treat us to a crash history course on democratically, constitutionally guided nations with penchants for gun ownership that have been stripped of their civil liberties and unable to return amidst their subsequent demise, and corroborate your statement of what history has proven. Elaborate on what you mean by "that point", since possibly you are in disagreement with the OP that we have "gone too far", less you feel it is "too late". [ QUOTE ] It really scares me that people think the way you do. [/ QUOTE ] Do you honestly think I am oblivious to my own civil liberties, and my own awareness as to where the government shall and shall not tread? Are you aware that I hail from the militia capital of the world, where a commonly referred-to motto is "When All Else Fails, Vote from the Rooftops"? Tell me, in what way do I think? (since it scares you so much)
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#8
12-24-2005, 05:28 PM
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Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
As I said in the original post, I am biased against this administration. The thing about this is that both sides seem to think that they are so obviously correct that they fail to consider the merits of the other side. I have no desire to start a flame war and I don't mean anything personally on what is a very contentious issue.
To reply to a few points. 1) I am tired of hearing the argument that other presidents and administrations did the same thing. Even if that were true, that is a poor argument. Regardless, I have yet to see any evidence that past presidents have engaged in behavior this egregious. 2) I will concede that both political parties are descipable in their non-stop sniping of each other. Yes, the Democrats complain about a lot of things, but the Republicans were bad too when Clinton was in charge. I have no desire to argue which side is nastier other than they are both horrible. 3) Asking me what civil liberties I have lost is a transparent argument. Any American's loss of civil liberties equates to a loss for us all. Since I am a law-abiding citizen, should I not object to other people losing their rights? If people keep justifying all of this, what is to stop my rights from being violated in the future? 4) Please, no more of this "un-patriotic" argument. If I hear this one more time, I will want to vomit. Essentially you are saying I should support everything the president does during wartime. Bush had a time to be basically immune to criticism immediately after 9-11. Questioning those in charge is exactly what makes Democracy work.
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#9
12-24-2005, 07:19 PM
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Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
First, happy birthday.
Second, there are some conservatives that would not admit that Bush has gone too far even if he announced that he was dissolving Congress, cancelling the 2006 and 2008 elections, and assuming power "indefinitely" in the name of national security. They would say that these are "temoporary" measures that are necessary because we are at war. More to the point, they would cheer any maneuver, no matter how undemocratic, unconstitutional or unprincipled, that kept their side in power.
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#10
12-25-2005, 11:58 AM
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Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
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1) I am tired of hearing the argument that other presidents and administrations did the same thing. Even if that were true, that is a poor argument. [/ QUOTE ] It isn't a poor argument - either the person using the argument is using it incorrectly or you're not getting it. The point of this argument is not to excuse the current administration's abuses. The point is to demonstrate the fallacy of those who use the current administration's abuses as evidence that their favored side would be better overlords than the current administration. Replacing "R" thugs with "D" thugs isn't going to fix this problem.
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