The definition of LAG

[rwanger]

I'm starting to get concerned about the overuse of LAG in this forum. LAG is the "new black" if you will, it's fashionable and cool. What kind of VPIP and PFR #'s makes you a lag?

If you are playing 6 person and have numbers like 22/12, is that really considered loose aggressive?

My numbers over the last 7k hands are 31/16 and pokertracker calls me "Semi-Loose Aggressive"...so based on that definition, 22/12 can't be loose, can it?

It seems like 22/12 numbers are common among many of the posters here, and I suspect many of you play more aggressively postflop with draws and marginal hands than I do.

With 31/16, I have been raising a bit more preflop, and seeing more flops in general, betting with any sort of draw or pair on the flop, and then slowing down when I get played with. Unless I have a good hand, in which case, I almost always seem to get great action. Does this make me a LAG? Or to be a true LAG do I need to be making crazy turn checkraises with bottom pair or gutshots? Should I be?

What kind of PT aggression numbers are you guys sporting? If I recall, mine is around 1.9. I play 6max, do you get a different set of numbers playing full tables?

I'd like to hear some different people weigh in on this...

[warlockjd]

I think there was a similar thread, try searching for PT and aggression factor maybe.

Anyhoo, here's mine for $400 and $600 max.

VPIP 22% Rz 11% (w/ many minirzs to throw off your PT)

Flop 4.01

Turn 1.80

River 0.85

Overall 2.61

[The Ocho]

I think it's precisely these crazy poker tracker numbers that are perverting the true meaning and essence of good lagness around here. I don't know what these damn numbers mean, and the constant use and reliance on them for reads and such confuses the hell out of me. This is why I hate online poker and online poker players. Play live, learn how to handle chips, learn the art of table talk, and learn how to kill angle shooters. Give me a real read on a player, not some shitty numbers that some cheap piece of software gives you. And, for God's sake, don't try and give me a set of numbers as evidence that you're a good player. You may be a 22/13/1.5 or whatever, but you probably still suck.

I hope this thread and this small rant of mine pulls limon out of the woodwork.

[rwanger]

I'm not asking what numbers you should have to be a good player...I'm asking what DEFINES a LAG, since everyone is so keen on labeling themselves as one. Do you have to see tons of flops. Few flops with lot of raises?

One thing that sometimes confuses me is that someone who calls themself a LAG will post a hand where they are betting, raising, check-raising with weak hands and/or slim draws. If you really have been playing LAGish, isn't it VERY hard to bluff? Aren't people going to call you down with very marginal hands? Or are we hearing about "set up" hands where someone tries to announce themselves as a fish?

I'm glad there are real men out there like ocho to put us internet players in our place. It's cute that he thinks this post is just some roundabout way of stroking my own ego. But he probably could beat me live (I'm sure I have tells). And also, I probably suck.

No numbers here, is this striaghtforward enough for you?

[GimmeDaWatch]

This is why I hate online poker and online poker players. Play live, learn how to handle chips, learn the art of table talk, and learn how to kill angle shooters.

You hate online poker b/c of PokerTracker statistics? Sweet.

[The Ocho]

I didn't mean my post to be a personal attack on you. My point was that it's hard for me (and for others) to analyze somebody's play by the pokertracker stats people often throw around. I believe the pokertracker stats address mostly (or entirely) preflop play. Preflop is often the most unimportant street in NL holdem. It is usually the easiest to play. Postflop is tough- and good postflop play (where effective LAG is defined) cannot be distilled down to numbers or statistics. I think the reliance of many online players on these numbers is a mistake and has them focusing on the wrong areas of their game. It's nothing personal.

Also, I know I suck. Most people suck. It's ok. I can tilt like a maniac, play terribly when I'm stuck, and constantly try to make huge hero calls. I used to make big laydowns. Now I make big calls. Value bet me hard and frequently and I'll put your kids through college.

[The Ocho]

[ QUOTE ]
This is why I hate online poker and online poker players. Play live, learn how to handle chips, learn the art of table talk, and learn how to kill angle shooters.

You hate online poker b/c of PokerTracker statistics? Sweet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I miswrote. I meant I hate discussing online poker with a lot of people because all they know about opponents are pokertracker stats. Naturally, the higher you go, the fewer players there are to study and the better the observation and discussion of opponents.

I guess the true reason I don't enjoy online poker is because all of the physical clues that I rely on so heavily when playing live are stripped away from me. All of the great things about live poker are replaced online by vpip, aggression factors, etc. I don't like that trade. I am an online fish because I can't read a hand for the life of me when playing online. And everybody hates being the fish.

[Voltron87]

i hate the bb/100 and all other winrate statistics. i wish i could just remove them from pt or only be able to look at them on the first day of every month.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I know I suck. Most people suck. It's ok. I can tilt like a maniac, play terribly when I'm stuck, and constantly try to make huge hero calls. I used to make big laydowns. Now I make big calls. Value bet me hard and frequently and I'll put your kids through college.

[/ QUOTE ]

amen brother

Regarding the PT 235/252/2525 numbers, I think most people post their opponent's because it helps us narrow down their possible holdings, and that's that.