I c/c c/c donk my flush draw HU

Alobar · #1 12-09-2005, 04:34 PM

villian in this hand is 21/10/2.5

5 handed

Im in BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Button open raises, I call

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, he bets, I call

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, he bets, I call

River 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet

I figured the flop c/r had zero chance of accomplishing anything and would just make it more expensive on me being OOP, same with the turn.

Im not sure how I feel about the river donk, It feels obvious what im doing, but i figure hed prolly think I would have raised at some point with the draw. But im hoping he has some hand often enough that isnt worth a call, even if he suspects im full of it, which I Figured would be pretty often given a button open raise in a 5 handed game. Tho the fact he actually bet the turn I think works against me for that scenerio to be true....anyway, thoughts?

Spicymoose · #2 12-09-2005, 04:35 PM

Why don't you like the flop check raise? I think this does work quite a bit. What do you expect him to do with all of his non pair hands? If he has an ace he may continue, but it will be hard for him otherwise.

Lmn55d · #3 12-09-2005, 04:39 PM

Hey Alobar, I actually played a few hands like this the other day. I think one river bet worked the other did not.

Against a guy like this though, I think you probably should go ahead and checkraise the flop. He probably won't fold an Ace, but he doesn't seem like the kind to 3bet you or raise the turn with like KQ or some other random shiz, ya know? I've cut down the amount of semibluffs I make in this game because people DONT fold. But I think this is a good spot for one.

Plus your 7 and 8 are gonna be good a lot which makes your equity pretty decent. I'm really not sure if your river bet is +EV here, I think it might be. It seems to me, though, that if you think a river bluff here has a good chance of success, it is because he has a range of hands against which a flop checkraise is probably optimal.

#4 12-09-2005, 04:46 PM

I do this sometimes. You only need him to fold 1/6 to be neutral EV. I don't try it too often against the same person though.

Alobar · #5 12-09-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me, though, that if you think a river bluff here has a good chance of success, it is because he has a range of hands against which a flop checkraise is probably optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true...but I was unsure of how he would react to my flop c/r, I really dont think its unlikely that he 3 bets with anything, or waits and raises the turn, as my raise just looks like total BS. Tho given the situation that may not be a bad thing, as like you said, my equity is probably fairly large on the flop. And its not like I can get bluffed off the better hand, because even if he thinks hes "bluffing" me back, hes got the better hand most likely.

krishanleong · #6 12-09-2005, 04:52 PM

I check raise the turn and bet the river. I don't much like your line.

Krishan

Alobar · #7 12-09-2005, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I check raise the turn and bet the river. I don't much like your line.

[/ QUOTE ]

this just seems like a really expensive bluff that I think gets called by any A or PP, and if he has a J I have to call a 3 bet on the turn.

I dont exactly like my line, but at the time I was thinking it had the best risk/reward ratio.

TStoneMBD · #8 12-09-2005, 05:20 PM

i prefer checkraising the turn and checkfolding the river against most players. against some players id follow through on the river. i feel where youre coming from about the flop cr not accomplishing anything. alot of opponents are going to call you down with any ace or maybe any king in that spot. i always checkraise this flop though because there are just too many hands villain could have that he cant call down with. i wouldnt expect him to fold an ace though. after youve just called the turn i like the river donk.

cartman · #9 12-09-2005, 05:26 PM

I think you need a little more scare value out of the river card to make this bet worthwile. I think you will always get called by Ace high and usually by King high here. I guess the question is how often does he have worse than that. Against a 10 PFR it doesn't seem like often enough to me.

Cartman

Danenania · #10 12-09-2005, 05:36 PM

I think this is better against a stronger player. I gulped when I read this because I'm willing to drop A-high in some situations like this against tight/straightforward players (though this is the board to call with it if there ever was one). That said the idea of most tags folding A-high here is a joke and the issue is more whether he folds K-high or not. Because of this and also how tight he is PF I like either a flop or turn c/r better (flop is default, turn with a read). It might also be useful to look at his wtsd and flop/turn aggression when deciding on a line.