$5/$5 $500 Max 10/10 hand

[BobboFitos]

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The game described sounds like a low stakes game with many unskilled, loose players. First of all, the OP just doubled up and now has 86BB. Is the buy in capped at 50BB or something?


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Subject: Re: $5/$5 $500 Max 10/10 hand

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I'm assuming thats the buy in.

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Do you think they all have monster draws or made hands?

In this game, you should limp with TT preflop most of the time. You should especially limp with TT when early position players have already limped. They are not likely to fold to a 6X the BB raise.

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This is more of a reason to raise, you know that, right?...


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Just to note, BobboFritos is giving an incorrect description of the game conditions in the thread where we discussed whether to limp or raise most of the time with TT in a specific game situation. You can read that thread if you want more info.

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Oh.

I thought though that there were some good points (on both sides) as to when limping or raising is "better."

[Big_Jim]

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Just stacked a guy with J8 (he had QQ).

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I have $432, everyone has me covered.

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Interesting...

[Post-Oak]

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I'm assuming thats the buy in.


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Good point. I missed that. I guess the OP bought in very short.

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This is more of a reason to raise, you know that, right?...


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Nope, that's exactly wrong IMO. TT is not a great preflop hand. It is not far ahead of garbage like JK offsuit. Surely you must know that? Like if you raise, and the two limpers call, now what? Let me guess... You "play poker"... Outplay them postflop and all that jazz.

They might reraise you preflop, and you are holding TT with a shortstack. It is best to play TT for set value here, and they won't even have to have much on the flop to pay you off.


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I thought though that there were some good points (on both sides) as to when limping or raising is "better."

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That doesn't sound 100% accurate, since you said right in your post that the "pseudo discussion" would change his mind in favor of raising preflop. I was just pointing out that the discussion concerned playing a relatively short stack (considered short for that game anyway) against LAG deepstacks who overbet the pot by 2X or more with made hands, semi-bluffs and pure bluffs. Now that may not be an accurate description of the actual Foxwoods 5-5, but that is how it was presented to the OP when he asked if he should call the overbet.

[Marlow]

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In this game, you should limp with TT preflop most of the time. You should especially limp with TT when early position players have already limped. They are not likely to fold to a 6X the BB raise.

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I don't understand this, but maybe you could explain. I think flexibility becomes more important when your opponents are good, not when they are bad. So far as I can tell, you need to play by-the-book TAG NL poker against terrible players, and mix it up with varying degrees of flexibility against stronger players.

For lots of examples of this, compare what's said here, and what's said in the SSNL forum. Those guys are really looking for good foundational play -- mostly because it's what wins the most money against complete fish.

But again, I'm interested in hearing more about where you are coming from. Is hero merely set mining here?

Marlow

[BobboFitos]

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This is more of a reason to raise, you know that, right?...



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Nope, that's exactly wrong IMO. TT is not a great preflop hand. It is not far ahead of garbage like JK offsuit. Surely you must know that?

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Hand ranges. TT crushes hand ranges if they will limp most hands, and if they will call raises with those hands, too. 86o, t4s, Q8, etc. who knows what they're playing, but even though TT v KJo doesn't have a big equity advantage whatsoever, you do vs their hand ranges.

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That doesn't sound 100% accurate, since you said right in your post that the "pseudo discussion" would change his mind in favor of raising preflop.

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True, I implied that raising is better because I believe raising is better. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Although yes, there were good arguments on both sides, and I dont believe it's clear cut either way. But I would raise preflop in that spot.

[Post-Oak]

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Hand ranges. TT crushes hand ranges if they will limp most hands, and if they will call raises with those hands, too. 86o, t4s, Q8, etc. who knows what they're playing, but even though TT v KJo doesn't have a big equity advantage whatsoever, you do vs their hand ranges.


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Maybe they're playing J8o, looking to double up to 80BB [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Although yes, there were good arguments on both sides, and I dont believe it's clear cut either way. But I would raise preflop in that spot.

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OK, that's fine. I just don't think the OP should be ridiculed for limping with TT here (instead ridicule him for playing with 40BB). I know you were not one of those people, I was just adding that I didn't think your short summary of the other thread was accurate. I like open raising with TT against good players when the stacks are deep.

[Post-Oak]

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I think flexibility becomes more important when your opponents are good, not when they are bad.


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I agree with this statement.

We are talking about two different forms of flexibility. The first form (the one I was referring to) is changing how you play to suit the table conditions. For example, you should not bluff aggressively against a table full of loose calling stations.

The second form of flexibility (the one you are referring to) is being able to mix up your play in order to not become predictable. This is a necessary skill when playing against good players. Against bad players, it is counterproductive. Let's say you only limp reraise with AA or KK against weak players. Do you think it matters? Will they catch on? No, because that is the kind of thing that makes them such garbage players. Against decent players, you need to mix things up.

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So far as I can tell, you need to play by-the-book TAG NL poker against terrible players,


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I wouldn't even say TAG. You need to play straightforwardly. You shouldn't bluff against players who call too much, so you need to tone down the aggressiveness a little. Many times you shouldn't even semi-bluff. You don't need to be tricky. Bet your strong hands, and they will stall call you down. They don't learn.

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and mix it up with varying degrees of flexibility against stronger players.


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Yes. Against stronger players, you need to do this.

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For lots of examples of this, compare what's said here, and what's said in the SSNL forum. Those guys are really looking for good foundational play -- mostly because it's what wins the most money against complete fish.


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I really believe that the OP could have gotten better advice regarding this specific game in the SS forum.

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Is hero merely set mining here?


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No, he doesn't have to be set mining exclusively.

[VanVeen]

I've played in this game. They are absolutely horrible players, comparable to the dudes in the $10 buyin games on PokerStars. Just a ridiculously soft game.

Anyway, looks good to me. I wouldn't be surprised if a nine calls you or a pair + gutshot. You're almost always ahead and given the number of players left in the hand, the strength of your hand, and the texture of the board, hand protection clearly has priority over value extraction. If you lose, who cares. Reload.

I'd raise TT in this game. I want to play big pots with nice hands and position vs. readable opponents who are easily manipulated.

[kagame]

if theyre so bad then they probably also slowplay too much

sure are alot of people seeing the turn

raising preflop would have helped you out as vanveen mentions

[redsoxsox]

I feel its best to raise TT in this loose game. All your doing by limping in MP with this hand is having a very loose table call behind you with all there suited hands, and other drawing hands.