I get to play post flop. . . .well, kinda

ReDeYES88 · #1 03-16-2005, 10:03 PM

Party $20+2, last hand of first round.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

CO (t745)
Button (t2115)
Hero (t755)
BB (t800)
UTG (t845)
UTG+1 (t775)
MP1 (t760)
MP2 (t305)
MP3 (t900)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, 2 folds, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, CO calls t15, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Hey, a practically free flop. No reason to bet, and too good to muck.

Flop: (t75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

Good so far. No reason to lead bet OOP with this coordinated of a board. Willing to call a smallish bet.

Turn: (t75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets t70, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls t70, BB folds.

Mixed results. My flush hit, but the board paired. UTG had taken the betting lead on a couple of previous hands, and at the time I thought that I would just smooth call and let him tie his own rope. In hindsight I think I should have raised and defined my hand to him . . . .why?.. . because of this:

River: (t215) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets t225, Hero?

Don't like the second board pair. It is reasonable that I would have heard from a set or a Q on the flop with a two flush board. He could easily be betting this with A high or a weaker flush.

What's your move on the river, and how would you play previous streets differently?

Part of the reason for my line on this hand is I had just played a hand at another table where I had T4s from the BB and caught my flush on the turn as well. That one played out almost identically to this one, except the villan checked the river, and I made a nice sized value bet and took the pot. I think the passive nature of that play worked it's way into this one. This hand, with the paired board, requires a different play.

lastchance · #2 03-16-2005, 10:05 PM

Raise the turn for value, yeah. Other than that, I think you played great.

ReDeYES88 · #3 03-16-2005, 10:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn for value, yeah. Other than that, I think you played great.

[/ QUOTE ]

"you played great", except you don't know my choice on the river, and I don't know yours. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

call, raise, fold. ..whatcha gunna do?

david050173 · #4 03-16-2005, 11:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn for value, yeah. Other than that, I think you played great.

[/ QUOTE ]

"you played great", except you don't know my choice on the river, and I don't know yours. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

call, raise, fold. ..whatcha gunna do?

[/ QUOTE ]

fold on the river. raises are only getting called by hands that have you beat. It isn't worth 1/3 of my stack to see if he is a bluffer. The turn play here is horrid. The only reason to check on the turn is if you are going for a check raise.

lastchance · #5 03-17-2005, 12:22 AM

I fold. But raising the turn for value (which you have to do) makes this a lot different.

johnnybeef · #6 03-17-2005, 12:36 AM

you need to raise the turn define your hand. id prolly bet 1/2 to 3/4 the pot in this situation.

pokerlaw · #7 03-17-2005, 12:54 AM

I would raise on the turn, get more chips out of him, as he probably has a pair. once that nasty, ugly river hits, muck and be angry [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

ReDeYES88 · #8 03-17-2005, 09:41 AM

So I think that the concensus (and me earlier) says to raise on the turn, either lead out or check/raise.

I'm curious about a couple of things: after his t70 lead into a t75 pot, it seems that a raise from me should be in the t200 range or so, no?, leaving me with t530. What's your move if he pushes? We're not quite stuck, but should we be?

Say he calls our t200 raise on the turn, and the second board pair comes on the river. Pot is now t475 and you have t530. Your move is?

Actual results:
 Hero mucked on the river. Not to be results oriented, but the villan flashed As 5s for the nut flush. Pretty consistant with his play of the hand

john_ · #9 03-17-2005, 11:58 AM

The queen pairing I think is a lot worse than the 7.

As it turns out the call on the turn / river card saved you a lot of chips. Raising there doesn't seem right to me because you're going to be very confused what to do if you're re-raised all-in. Also, there's not a good range of hands for him to call the raise with either...a suited 8 is a really scary card given all the players in the flop. You didn't like it and you had a king high flush, imagine how a pair of queens would feel.

Scuba Chuck · #10 03-17-2005, 12:44 PM

OP, FWIW, I only call on the turn here IF the board is unpaired (especially with someone left to act behind me.) The probability of a set completing to a fullhouse is like 1 in 3, so you want to make a stand IMO. I think this strategy will help you more in the future. So what do we think UTG has?

A 2 pair and Ace kicker?
B Queens over 8s?
C 8s over Queens?
D Queens and (a different pair - like pocket 9s)?
E Nut flush or lower flush?
D A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]-rag

Why do you think villain bet the pot on the river? Why didn't he go allin, or bet less to draw in lesser hands? This standard potsized bet here leaves a lot to think about (especially that all he has is an Ace). His 70 chip bet on the turn indicated that he either has a flush (I doubt), a pocket pair (making 2 pair), trip 8s, or an attempted steal, IMO. And, if he had trip 8s it would seem reasonable to make a pot sized bet at a flush completing board. I don't think villain has a pocket Queen. Leaving 8s over Queens the only hand to worry about (and to a lesser extent, the Ace high flush). Because he played his hand from UTG, I think he had an Ace or pocket pair. Due to his position preflop, and betting, I really think he has 2 pair, with the Ace kicker, or two pair like Queens and Nines.

Maybe this is one of those scenarios where the advice "Better to fold a winner, than to play a loser" holds true. Unless I knew more about villain, I'm pretty sure I'd still fold here. It's hard to read the fish on $20+2s. Fish here could have played A8 or 78 (or 82 "sooted" for that matter) from UTG.