taking a rowboat to a yacht party

[ReDeYES88]

curious if anyone else plays it differently.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
<font color="#C00000">UTG+1 (t890)</font>
<font color="#C00000">UTG+2 (t785)</font>
MP1 (t785)
MP2 (t785)
MP3 (t785)
CO (t800)
Button (t785)
Hero (t785)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t15, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 calls t15, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets t55, UTG+2 calls t55, MP1 folds, Hero calls t55, BB folds.

No flush, possible gut straight, no reason to push things just yet. Happy to have someone else bet

Turn: (t240) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t90, UTG+2 calls t90, Hero calls t90.

Thought about jacking it up here after a bet and a call, but also realized that I'm not going to push anyone off of an ace the second hand of a party 10+1. Might as well see what the river brings before committing.

River: (t510) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t100, UTG+2 calls t100, Hero folds.

blech. The river muck is a no-brainer. I'm curious if others would have pushed the action on previous streets or would have taken the same "wait and see what the river brings" attitude that I did. The more I thought about this hand after the fact, the more I realized that the two opponents could have had any Ax after the PF limps, and there really was no way for me to know where I was no matter what came on the river. Even if the second board pair doesn't come, I'm not sure that this is a hand to commit with against two other opponents. Big bet, yes; commit, probably not. Too tight?

Final Pot: t710

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG+1 has Tc As (full house, aces full of queens).
UTG+2 has Jd Ah (full house, aces full of queens).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins t355. UTG+2 wins t355. </font>

[Runner Runner]

Good limp preflop

I think I would at least try a small check raise on the flop, maybe to T125 total. That way you can build a pot in case someone can't get away from top pair, if they both fold you are still picking up almost T200.

O.k so you didn't raise the flop, now you must checkraise the turn as an ace will call you and be drawing thin. There is T380 in there so you may well checkraise to between T300 and allin.

When you flop a small set in these shallow stack sng's I think it's best to not slowplay too much. Play it hard and if someone comes along that's great. Also, if you wait and see the turn and river before showing aggression it can become too late as you have found out.

[etgryphon]

It's kinda funny...

You played the hand the best way NOT to lose all your money. With that being said, I'm with Runner Runner that you should have gone for the check raise on the flop. On the turn, I'm putting all my money in, you are only behind AA and AQ here, but you will get a call from an Ax when they are drawing to at most a four outer. With that also being said, they would have called you and you would have lost.

Poker is funny that way. huh? The correct play would have busted you out.

-Gryph

PS. Love the title...

[ReDeYES88]

Under different circumstances with a different flop [i.e. middle set with fewer cards that are likely to be held by others] I probably go for the check raise on either the flop or turn. My thinking was that at the 10+1 level an ace is very likely to pay me off even if I check all the way to the river and then push in a big bet, and I have found that at this level it is very unlikely that I will push anyone off of TP no matter what the kicker, so there really wasn't a need to juice the pot early. With two other people in the hand, the likelyhood of another ace was pretty high. Think of it as a prolonged all in, where I have the luxury of avoiding the suckout because I don't actually have all of my chips in the middle. Any other card but an A or Q and I'm either shoving or pot+ betting the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is funny that way. huh? The correct play would have busted you out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, my thoughts exactly and the reason for the post.

[Phil Van Sexton]

I bet 50 on the flop. You aren't going to get paid off unless someone has an Ace with this flop. Assuming someone has an Ace, I prefer to bet out and represent a weak Ace or Queen myself. Anyone with an Ace will certainly call, and ideally raise.

If you check the flop and nobody has an Ace, it might be checked around and hands like KJ and JT get a free card.

Anyway, after betting the flop, if I'm raised, I just call. Remember, you are representing a weak Ace, so re-raising all-in is totally out of line. When the 2nd Ace hits the turn, I'd make 1/2 pot size bet into the raiser as if I have an Ace, but I don't think he does. Of course, he probably does, and will hopefully raise allin.

Let's say the 2 villians just called my bet on the flop. Now the turn is another Ace. I'd probably make a 1/2 pot size bet here into the 2 opponents. That would be about 100 (pot=220). Again, this is how some people would play a weak Ace or even a Queen. Hopefully, one of them puts all their chips in.

If they just call, the pot is 520 on the river. I'd bet 400 and see what happens (unless the board pairs, dammit).

I just don't like the idea of always checking or checking raising with monster hands. If you check/call or it's checked around, the pot stays small. You want to build the pot so that your opponents are pot committed by the river. Betting out has the added benefit of pricing out long-shot draws.

Check raising is also not ideal. This shows great strength and raises a red flag with many players. Check raising all-in takes away all of your opponent's perceived fold equity. (Of course, they have no fold equity, but they don't know that.) You want to encourage them to raise all-in, rather than force them to call an all-in.

Maybe it's an artifact of limit play, but people love to slowplay big hands by checking the flop and then check-raising on the turn. A big checkraise into a small pot is a sure way to lose a fish that you should have hooked. A min-checkraise is a huge red flag as well.

Remember, the only way to win a big pot is if your opponent has a good hand. Don't be afraid to bet. If they have a good hand, they aren't going to fold. If the don't, they'll fold, big deal. They weren't going to pay you off anyway.

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't like the idea of always checking or checking raising with monster hands. If you check/call or it's checked around, the pot stays small. You want to build the pot so that your opponents are pot committed by the river. Betting out has the added benefit of pricing out long-shot draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well put Phil, I agree 100% with your post and the above statement [the always part]. I don't typically slow play a hand this big, but it seemed at the time, based on the particular set of circumstances, that a slow play was acceptable. I was lucky to get unlucky.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet 50 on the flop. You aren't going to get paid off unless someone has an Ace with this flop. Assuming someone has an Ace, I prefer to bet out and represent a weak Ace or Queen myself. Anyone with an Ace will certainly call, and ideally raise.

If you check the flop and nobody has an Ace, it might be checked around and hands like KJ and JT get a free card.

Anyway, after betting the flop, if I'm raised, I just call. Remember, you are representing a weak Ace, so re-raising all-in is totally out of line. When the 2nd Ace hits the turn, I'd make 1/2 pot size bet into the raiser as if I have an Ace, but I don't think he does. Of course, he probably does, and will hopefully raise allin.

Let's say the 2 villians just called my bet on the flop. Now the turn is another Ace. I'd probably make a 1/2 pot size bet here into the 2 opponents. That would be about 100 (pot=220). Again, this is how some people would play a weak Ace or even a Queen. Hopefully, one of them puts all their chips in.

If they just call, the pot is 520 on the river. I'd bet 400 and see what happens (unless the board pairs, dammit).

I just don't like the idea of always checking or checking raising with monster hands. If you check/call or it's checked around, the pot stays small. You want to build the pot so that your opponents are pot committed by the river. Betting out has the added benefit of pricing out long-shot draws.

Check raising is also not ideal. This shows great strength and raises a red flag with many players. Check raising all-in takes away all of your opponent's perceived fold equity. (Of course, they have no fold equity, but they don't know that.) You want to encourage them to raise all-in, rather than force them to call an all-in.

Maybe it's an artifact of limit play, but people love to slowplay big hands by checking the flop and then check-raising on the turn. A big checkraise into a small pot is a sure way to lose a fish that you should have hooked. A min-checkraise is a huge red flag as well.

Remember, the only way to win a big pot is if your opponent has a good hand. Don't be afraid to bet. If they have a good hand, they aren't going to fold. If the don't, they'll fold, big deal. They weren't going to pay you off anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. There's some insight into the mind of somebody that really knows how to play after the flop. I don't know Phil Van Sexton from Vince Van Patton... but you can tell that he's spent some time playing no limit ring games. I'm glad I picked him as my "sleeper pick" in the thread on good 2+2 posters. Here's another gem.

Brilliant reply.

Irieguy

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, I'm putting all my money in, you are only behind AA and AQ here, but you will get a call from an Ax when they are drawing to at most a four outer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Three Xs, one ace, and 3 queens is 7 outs.

Excellent reply Phil.

[etgryphon]

my bad...you're right

-Gryph