Borgata 20-40 Hand

[afish]

The problem with slowplaying the flop is the number of scare cards that can come on the turn (e.g., any spade or any 10, J, or Q). I'd probably lead the flop, since the button could easily check behind if he has a hand like QQ. Once the button bets and three people call behind the better, it is time to raise and trap everyone in for multiple bets. Going for the check raise on the turn is just leaving money on the table. On the turn, it could be checked through, or folks could start releasing their hands.

I agree with the turn bet, but that is why you should have bet or check raised the flop.

On the river, I'd raise. SB will call the raise, and I can't see getting more than one overcall if you didn't raise. Thus, at worst, raising is neutral.

[tolbiny]

You should check raise this flop. always, there are a lot of cards to come, and hands that the button can have that might slow down on the turn. You are giving up 2.5 bb's most of the time you forgo the flop check raise. The button will also three bet with AK and sometimes with AQ, or AJ- and hten you get to cap that bitch. You have perfect position for pumping up this pot, and that is exactly what you need to do.
The way you played it i would likely just call the river.

[The Bear]

You should raise the river and it's not close. The button might call two cold with her AxQs and you are ahead of the SB like 99% of the time here.

You should also check-raise the flop. If the button is so aggro, maybe she'll three-bet and then you can consider check-raising the turn.

The Bear

[Victor]

I checkraise the flop and hope to get 3bet by the preflop raiser. Then checkraise the turn if a blank hits or lead if a spade hits.

I raise the river. There are a ton of hands that you beat that will bet and call here. There is strong likelihood that the button will call with AQ or AJ. By checkraising the flop you could define his hand better. For instance if you had checkraised and been 3bet then you can pretty sure that button has a big ace and possibly ak.

[elysium]

hi riverman

you have a lot of good raw enthusiasm and a willingness to learn that may work well for you over time. i think you're young as well. that can also be a plus. also, your post indicates to me anyway that if you don't yet have a solid reserve of understanding about this game that you want to be ripped into and can take harsh criticism if it will save you money. that you are more than willing to go back to hfap and top as many times as necessary if in fact doing so will further that aim. whether you are ready or not for the oppressively aggressive efforts and tactics used by the seasoned pros to better wedge in a gap between you and your presumtively hard earned dollar is a foregone conclusion; you already know that you are lacking in the necessary skills to adequately compete in this game at the 20-40 level. you don't like a lot of repetition and of course that would be repeating yourself in light of what you have implied already. you don't know what to do; you don't know what to do; you don't know what to do. what you do want is advice.

firstly riverman, you must take time off to do a little homework. now i'm sure that you could point as well as i or anyone else here that the button's pre-flop raise means little or nothing. he can never be depended upon to bet on the flop when checked to because he's the button, the least dependable position at the table when hoping for a bet to come. he's the button. what does that mean? you're the bettor, that's exactly right. now there is an exception to that basic fundemental hold em law, but it involves a situation akin to finding the button betting out of turn or something dang close to it. as a rule, however, you are never to depend upon the button for anything, especially when you act just before he does, in a good multi-way. never.

you risked every flop bet that entered into the pot to a single whimsical button check....oh.

you also need to consider the board. does it look like the button may have hit the flop reasonably strongly? allowing you to assume that a bet is coming? hardly riverman. this is exactly the type of flop that more than likely missed the button. if the button has a made hand, this is the exact type of flopped board that will more than likely cause the button to fear being check-raised and further induce his checking it down. it gets much worse though, however.

the flop produces a board with sufficient coordination to assure that a bet by you will be called or check-raised, maybe check-raised from your immediate right. this means that your bet has honest to gosh real value. the board also shouts out loud ,'riverman! riverman! the spade is falling! charge the draw the maximum to drawout on you. some of the seats in the field are indicating that if you bet, they will check-raise! bet riverman, bet!'. then, your made hand chimes in,'i think i can hold up, but gee, we do well to take the pot down right now. if these guys call you all the way, what happened last year to us in this same spot may happen again, and we may lose the whole pot. if the dealer four flushes the board, only a winning hand will call, and every hand your ahead of will proceed cautiously. winning right now by betting would be nice, but we also need to get the calls of your value bet into the pot before the board horrifies.'. and i think you see what i'm getting at.

we don't talk to the board, the board talks to us. we can sound off about our holding but if we remain silent and instead listen to what the board and our hand are saying, we make decisions that are tailor made to the situation. i'm not suggesting that we should disregard what our opponents might be indicating. opponent knowledge is very important. there are times, though, that even when you have a good solid read on your opponent, you will make the exact same decision that you would have made if you didn't know your opponent at all and had no clue as to what he might do, even when your opponent is suggesting through his style or tells that you take some other action. often, opponent knowledge is secondary to board knowledge because no matter what your read, you will do the same thing anyway, being more highly motivated by the mathematical language of the board, than the deceptive language used by your opponents, even if you know that a particular opponent will respond thus and thus, and the +ev move is something other than the action the mathematics of the situation implore. your posted hand is a classic example of just such a situation. you need to know when to hold em and fold em, and you need to know when to know em and know when to ignore em. in this hand what you think your opponent is going to do is totally worthless to you. you are in a life and death race against a mathematical catastrophe as you listen to the mathematical truths uttered by the integrity of your hand and the sagacious wisdom of the board, though your familiar opponent screams otherwise. you must also quickly recognize the major pitfalls of opponent knowledge and tells, and riverman your post is exemplary on that point of issue as well. excellent post.

remember, read hfap and top; drop down into a game with fewer experieced players than the one you are currently in; try to decide early on in a hand whether or not in fact the mathematical considerations completely dominate the emotional or psychological reasons for responding a certain way, and then have math guide you through to showdown, with opponent knowlege and tells relegated down in importance to just minor fine tuning detail. and riverman, you will find this to be the case 80% of the time. also be very aware, however, that about 20% of the time opponent knowledge and tells will weigh in more heavily than the mathematics of your hand and board, and it is extremely important to carefully differentiate between the two. the importance of having the study time under your belt to make this distinction will determine for the most part whether or not you are up to the challeges of the game. proceeding forward haphazardly without navigation directional skills is catastrophic to both brain and bankroll. when you allow the button to do your thinking for you, you allow him to do your bankroll management for you too. grim riverman, grim. presumptively grim. the button? silly man, you can't depend on him. make a bet. you must assume the responsibility of getting in the bet. we can never be too careful when it comes to betting.

[tolbiny]

Hi Ely,
welcome back.


From the original post
"I was 95% sure the button would bet again on the turn...she was aggressive and it was likely that she hit the flop"

From you
"you also need to consider the board. does it look like the button may have hit the flop reasonably strongly? allowing you to assume that a bet is coming? hardly riverman."

Whne did you start ignoring a player's reads? Thats not like you at all.

OP again
"Tremendous game, average of 5 players to each flop, most of whom are calling stations."

Now you
"the flop produces a board with sufficient coordination to assure that a bet by you will be called or check-raised, maybe check-raised from your immediate right. this means that your bet has honest to gosh real value"

I don't know what happed to you the past few months ELy, and maybe you just need to get back into the flow of things, but from the OP's description of the table, i would say your advice of betting out and hoping for a checkraise from your right is pretty atrocious.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: I would bet the flop because of your position. If the button raises, it really clarifies where you are in the hand since you are forcing the other players in the hand to cold call 2 on the flop. By check raising or smooth calling, you really don't get this information.

[/ QUOTE ]

what information are you gaining by this?

I checkraise the flop here strictly for value. slowplaying seems very wrong to me.

--turnipmonster

[Riverman]

Thanks for the responses.

I raised the river and got 3-bet by the original bettor. I made the crying call and lost to A 3o

I think my mistake in the hand is not checkraising the flop. As others have pointed out, the many scary turn cards mean that it is just not likely enough that I will have the opportunity to check-raise on the turn. (As indicated by my having to bet the turn)

I think not betting the turn is horrible poker, and that against this passive crowd the river raise is -EV.

Thanks to all.

[vmacosta]

I think I'm calling and hoping for the button to overcall (and given this line it seems very likely). SB's bet does not strike me as very strong and could well be something that would fold to a raise. In fact, your flat caling may entice the button to pop it with just trips...though I admit this is remote.

[jogger08152]

Raise and bust his 3's full (or Ace-crap) for as much as you can. Only time you lose here (to him) is when he has A-3 and is passive as hell.