Ethics Question

[JayKon]

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It could go that way. However, my primary point is that I worry about my own game and if I see someone make a mistake, it tells me something about how they play and how I can beat them. I'm in this to win first and enjoy myself second. Being a table captian just ain't on the list.

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This is very different from telling Jeff A. that by correcting the size of the pot when he is not in a hand that he is violating a written rule.

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Not really, I was just going into my own motivations and why I (personally) like the rule.

Anyway, I gotta go. Chow.

[MicroBob]

I have on several occasions pointed to a dealer or a player in an 8/16 game that they have accidentally bet $7 or $9.

I have also seen other players make corrections such as these for someone if they happen to see them.....even going so far as to reach out, grab the player's extra dollar out of the bet, and flip it back to them.


I have never seen or heard anyone mention that correcting an incorrect bet-size is somehow a violation of the rules.

[sfer]

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It could go that way. However, my primary point is that I worry about my own game and if I see someone make a mistake, it tells me something about how they play and how I can beat them. I'm in this to win first and enjoy myself second. Being a table captian just ain't on the list.

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This is very different from telling Jeff A. that by correcting the size of the pot when he is not in a hand that he is violating a written rule.

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Not really, I was just going into my own motivations and why I (personally) like the rule.

Anyway, I gotta go. Chow.

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So once you said that it's a rule. Then you concede that maybe the rule is intended for something else. And now you're saying what? Ciao.

[boscoboy]

i watch everything and say nothing - unless it borders on cheating. i just dont feel it's my job to ensure that you get 1/2 the pot with A9 against A10 when the board is AJJ109

[scrub]

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1. What do you think of the player who clearly saw the error in progress and did not say anything about it?

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I think the player made the worst decision possible. Particularly in a game that can be hurt in the long term by the alienation and loss of a weak player, all players have a responsibility to make sure that players who go home losing feel like the game was square.

I can understand not speaking up during a hand that you're not involved in--it's often hard to know whether you will do more harm than good to the dynamic of the table by butting in when it's "none of your business." If I made the decision not to correct the dealer during the hand, however, I would keep my mouth shut about the error afterwards. You NEVER want to create the perception that a game is not on the level, or to create a situation where a live player who just lost a big pot has to give up more money in a fashion that is likely to make him extremely upset, possibly causing him to quit the game or, even worse, to go lose his money in the pit instead next time.

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2. Was the button correct to just let it go?

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Yes.

But he should have spoken to the dealer, his floorperson, and the shift manager after the dealer pushed out of the game.

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3. Should the dealer be reported, and how serious of an error is this?

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Yes.

It's a pretty big error, and one that is easily avoided by a dealer who is conscientious about following the action and collecting and pulling bets using a consistent procedure.

scrub

[mrkilla]

1 - if he was going to keep his mouth shut, he should of did that , "wispering" the error after the money is pushed is wrong. either correct it out right or say nothing.

2 - depends where this guy is in the game, late or early in his session. If hes about to walk/get up anyway might as well take what you can now. and if 300 or so dollars is the diffrence in him staying then the ans is obvious.

3 - dealer should be corrected and its not a good error for sure, but as stated by someone else you are responsible for your action, as well as what goes in the pot. So hes not going to get fired over it, but he should be aware he made a mistake and the floor should know too so the new dealer can learn.

[pudley4]

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1. What do you think of the player who clearly saw the error in progress and did not say anything about it?

If he isn't in the pot speaking up would be a violation.

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Why? The players at the table have a responsibility to ensure the game is played correctly. This includes: making sure the bets are correct, making sure the correct hand wins at showdown (i.e. reading the board), preventing cheating/collusion, etc. If the dealer screws up the bet size, another player can and should correct him.

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Why do I have a responsibility to ensure a smooth game? That sort of seems like the houses job.

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It is the house's job. It's also your job to help.

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As to the bet size, if I'm in the pot you're damm straight I'll see the bet sizes are correct, otherwise I'm interfering in someone elses pot.

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Yet later on in this very same post you say:

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Now I have (and will) stop a pot from going to the wrong player,

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Um...it's not your hand, it's not your pot, why are you interfering now?

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What you're telling me is that I have to spend all of the enegry necessary to know how everyone is playing, pick my bet sizes (I'm NL, not PL), read hands, maintain my focus, beat the game! AND PLAY SHERIFF!?!

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I never said you have to play sheriff. However, if you notice something wrong (which you should, as you're focusing on the game the entire time), it is your obligation to speak up.

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Now I have (and will) stop a pot from going to the wrong player, but other than that there is a rule in every set of poker rules I've seen:

ONE PLAYER TO A HAND.

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Did I ever suggest helping either player here? Did I ever suggest anything other than correcting a dealer's mathematical error? No.

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You, however, seem to think it is a silly rule and therefore may ignore it at will.

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Your reading comprehension sucks. I never once referred to this rule, or any situation where this rule applies.

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Well, other than the potential disruption this may cause, I supose its OK by me. The more enegry you spend not playing poker, the better the game will be for me.

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I would bet money that my games would be better than yours, for the simple fact that I'd make sure the game was consistent and fair.

[pudley4]

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i watch everything and say nothing - unless it borders on cheating. i just dont feel it's my job to ensure that you get 1/2 the pot with A9 against A10 when the board is AJJ109

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Yet another one I disagree with. If you're thinking of mucking because you lost, that's one thing - I will not (and should not) say a word. Howver, once the hand(s) is(are) tabled, the best hand should win, regardless of whether the dealer or other players see it correctly.

In this case, not speaking up is poor etiquette. I've had times where the dealer was about to push me a pot that should have been chopped and I pointed out that it was a chop.

[boscoboy]

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i watch everything and say nothing - unless it borders on cheating. i just dont feel it's my job to ensure that you get 1/2 the pot with A9 against A10 when the board is AJJ109

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Yet another one I disagree with. If you're thinking of mucking because you lost, that's one thing - I will not (and should not) say a word. Howver, once the hand(s) is(are) tabled, the best hand should win, regardless of whether the dealer or other players see it correctly.

In this case, not speaking up is poor etiquette. I've had times where the dealer was about to push me a pot that should have been chopped and I pointed out that it was a chop.

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BIG difference with your example - accepting a pot you knew should be split when both hands were table is clearly cheating. however, if a player choses to spend time grabassing waitresses instead of playing his cards... i just can't see where i should be held responsible for his lack of attention

chances are you're just a nicer person than me