Too aggressive? (similar to the hot thread about Daliman's hand) - Page 8

dfscott · #71 04-03-2005, 07:49 PM

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Even if he does have crap for brains this is an easy push IMO.

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This is what I was thinking...

I'm not sure you can construct a calling hand range that is actually bad for Hero here (some will be worse than others of course). However, I've run no #s yet, [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Yugoslav

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IF you're willing to assume that the SB is pushing with any two, then the calcs say you're +10% EV to call with 66+, ATo+, A9s+, or KJs.

This STILL doesn't means that it's +$EV...

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I couldn't find a range of calling hands the BB could call the SB's Q5o with here that would make the allin from the SB -$EV. If he's calling with a HUGE range then it becomes marginal...but still +$EV.

I don't think even the biggest chump would callin with any two in the BB here.

Interestingly for calling from the BB, the +$EV range is smaller than I thought unless u know the SB is a very good player pushing with any two (even then it's tight).

Yugoslav
I'd call with AA-QQ and AK in the BB here....maybe a few more if SB big stack is a huge maniac.

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Hmm... are you using eastbay's tool? I just plugged it and asked it to compute the call hands. If I put in EXACTLY Q5o, you get a much wider range: 55+, AQo+, KQo, A5o, A5s, K5o, K5s, Q9o+, Q8s+.

Note: all this should be caveated with the fact that this functionality is still experimental, I believe. eastbay can probably elaborate...

The once and future king · #72 04-03-2005, 08:06 PM

Im much more intrested in the call than I am in the standard push.

Whilst I think the call is bad there are considerations that I havnt seen mentioned.

There is implied equity in calling. What I mean by this is that if one folds and plays passively then the inaitive and the stealing equity remains with the Big stack.

By calling one removes this. You will also take the inaitive away from the former big stack. He will be approach steals from you with a lot more caution knowing/thinking you are willing to call him down. Alot of players that were bullying with the big stack will thus tighten up in regard to you and thus If you win this initial confrontation I think you are now favourite to win this SNG.

Of course the fact that the Blinds are so high mitigates against this greatly. If the blinds were smaller I would be much more inclined to call with A7 (Very dependent on player read on the bullying stack and other considerations) as I have more time to leverage the implied equity I have just gained and also the small stack is not so close to demise.

My thoughts if holding the A7 relate to wether I want to be rolled over by the big stack in relation to my desire to outlast the small stack playing with just above 2xBB. A fear that any one with any poker ability will be exploiting.

I am going to make what will seem like a very idiosyncratic statement which is that mostly I fold here with A7 but sometimes I call. Unpredictabiltiy and a demonstrated desire to defend ones blinds has a certain amount of implied equity also, especialy against stronger opposition.

spentrent · #73 04-03-2005, 09:12 PM

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lol, what the hell do you do dude? you spout bad advice like its carved in stone, and get pissed when someone shows you they are wrong. maybe i get a little sarcastic sometimes in my posts, so what. i can almost guarantee you that reading my posts is +ev. and no, im not trolling. holla

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I'll take this post as acknowledgement that you've said nothing useful in this thread.

The Yugoslavian · #74 04-03-2005, 09:34 PM

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Hmm... are you using eastbay's tool? I just plugged it and asked it to compute the call hands. If I put in EXACTLY Q5o, you get a much wider range: 55+, AQo+, KQo, A5o, A5s, K5o, K5s, Q9o+, Q8s+.

Note: all this should be caveated with the fact that this functionality is still experimental, I believe. eastbay can probably elaborate...

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Putting the SB on exactly Q5o here doesn't make sense to me b/c you can't read the SB for that hand. You have to put SB on a range before calling. Unless you really think the SB is capable of pushing any two (if he's not, then he's going to be much tighter, players not willing to play any two generally aren't willing to play top 70% or even top 50% as well).

It is *extremely* player dependent on whether to call or not. With no reads I'm calling with very little. Your range would be absolute suicide, IMO. Calling with 55 here is *horrible* --- even if SB is playing any two. The minimum you'd need is 77 to call believe (if you're absolutely certain SB is playing any two).

Perhaps I'm completely misusing Easty's Analyzer though or running into some sorta bug....I don't have much exerpience with it.

Yugoslav
How do you ask it to compute all the call hands, btw?

microbet · #75 04-03-2005, 09:59 PM

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Calling with 55 here is *horrible* --- even if SB is playing any two. The minimum you'd need is 77 to call believe (if you're absolutely certain SB is playing any two).

Perhaps I'm completely misusing Easty's Analyzer though or running into some sorta bug....I don't have much exerpience with it.

Yugoslav
How do you ask it to compute all the call hands, btw?

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Seems to me like you are using it correctly.

NeoGeo · #76 04-04-2005, 07:59 AM

Let's not argue whether you think I can play STT or not. The fact is Hero has the chip lead, he doesn't need risk doubling 2nd chip leader with Q5o rags. I will attack 3rd chip lead since 4th place guy only has 2 BB to go and both of them are most conscious in survival mode. If I go attack 2nd chip leader, all-in is too suspicious to invite A7o call.

steeser · #77 04-04-2005, 09:08 AM

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Easy push, terrible call.

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Agreed, although you have to be prepared for some players to get tired of your aggressiveness and gamble with a hand.

jcm4ccc · #78 04-04-2005, 11:15 AM

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Let's not argue whether you think I can play STT or not. The fact is Hero has the chip lead, he doesn't need risk doubling 2nd chip leader with Q5o rags.

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I'm sure you can play STTs, but you are giving up one of the best tools of the winning player, which is bullying by the big stack on the bubble when the blinds are big and there is a small stack in danger.

If your goal is to finish in the money in this particular STT, then you may be right--pushing with Q5o in this situation is probably not a good move. For example, if someone put a gun to your head and said "You must finish in the money or I will shoot you," then I agree that it is poor to push Q5o in this situation.

If your goal is to maximize your return over a large number of STTs, then you should be drooling over this situation. It doesn't get much better than this. All of the winning players are telling you this.

raptor517 · #79 04-04-2005, 02:06 PM

i think this is terrible advice. A7 can go ahead and call me there every single time. he will be losing money every time he makes that call. 3uo

nokona13 · #80 04-04-2005, 02:17 PM

So I've been running scared recently on the bubble after a bad run pushing on the bubble into tables full of callboxes and getting hands like K5 called by K7 all in over and over...

In the OP's situation, the ICM says it's a push vs. an opponent who will call any two. What if you have J8o on the button, bubble, with two IDIOTS on the blinds, who will call with every hand that beats you? I haven't run the numbers, but if J8o is also +$EV vs. someone who will call any two, substitute a hand that is -$EV if the blinds' calling ranges are too big but +$EV vs. blinds with some idea of calling with marginal hand giving $EV away to all other players at the table. Does anyone have any general guidelines they play by when playing complete idiot calling stations vs. kinda stupid calling stations vs. good players?