Navy Seals vs Army Rangers vs other special forces vs UFC

[Blarg]

Scotty, on a couple of your points, by way of agreement.

The idea that eye gouges are not effective or you can't train for them -- whole styles are basically built around the eye gouge, like Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do, and some other Chinese styles too. And they train intensively on how to get there.

The idea that you fight the way you train is absolutely critical, too. It is very hard to adapt freely when you have trained according to rules. Your reactions become very fine and you only have a split second to apply them, so you naturally respond to take the openings that you have trained for, definitely not to take ALL AVAILABLE openings. If you have not trained to use knees, for example, you are much less likely to use them even when the rules make that available. Same with pretty much everything. You fight, or compete, the way you train, because your reactions become highly specialized, as do your choices. Things like eye gouges and throat strikes are not all that easy to do, but if you don't train for them, there's no way you'll just be able to spontaneously do them anywhere near as well as you can do execute the rest of your arsenal.

A highly trained sport competitor will very likely instinctively pass up opportunities to do some of the most damaging things, as they are disallowed by his sport so he is highly trained to focus on other things. This is a big advantage someone not trained for sport fighting will have over the sport fighter, no matter how much we idealize sport fighting and kid ourselves it's the real thing. It's not.

However, no matter how much we idealize special forces soldiers, being more naturally trained to go for the kill doesn't mean they are in the shape that UFC fighters are in or are as good fighters. If a sport fighter is faster or just in whatever way better than you, it may not matter that you are much more oriented toward realistic fighting. It's still usually the first guy to land the first blow who wins. Faster. better timing, better coordination -- they're still big hurdles to surmount for someone who simply doesn't put full time practice on hand to hand combat.

Both types of people have their advantages. Both have to overcome the advantages of the other.

But basically it's as foolish to say that the average special forces guy is in as good fighting shape for hand to hand combat as a professional sport fighter as it is to say that sport fighting transfers fully and easily to life and death encounters against people who are trained to kill you, not fight you.

People sometimes forget sport fighting is a game. Battlefield survival has no game in it. All respect to the great shape and highly practiced skills of sport fighters. But a sport fight is not a real fight by a considerable measure.

[BCPVP]

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Umm, im guessing its because they are interested in that kind of thing

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I'm guessing that it's because they didn't receive enough quality training during their scheduled time.

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Regardless, it proves that they train more than you think, and that many seek out techniques you seem to think are isolated to the UFC.

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It proves that some train more than the bare minimum taught during their scheduled time. No techniques are isolated to the UFC because they're all taken from various arts.

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John Hess, fought in the UFC around 95.

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I looked him up. He had two fights and only won one of them. Big deal.

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If who trains the most amount of time= they win, than seals train way more to kill than UFC guys do

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That's the problem. How do you train to kill someone using techniques without actually killing them? How do you know they'll work? At least with a rifle, you can shoot at targets or even use the MILES lasers. The fact of the matter is that a NHB fighter trains more in techniques that were designed to hurt people and do so against resisting training partners. Do the SEALs train eye gouges against someone who resists 100%? I doubt there'd be many SEALs that could see if they did.

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If there are no rules, grappling goes out the window, submission holds go out the window. Try and break the arm of a man trying to kill you so you can then defeat him when he has only one arm and he will kill you before you do.

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You really don't know jack [censored] about MMA or martial arts in general, do you? If you want to reduce being hit, grappling is an excellent way to do so, especially if the other guy isn't trained in grappling. That's why Royce was such a force in the early UFC days; because few people were training in ground fighting and thought their stand-up game was good enough to not have to worry about going to the ground. Try punching me while I have you tight in the guard. Or while I'm behind you locking on a rear naked choke. It won't work because it's designed to beat someone who tries to do that.

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What? You think seals train to fight peole cooperating with them?

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If they're employing the techniques you described, yes. How else can you train in lethal techniques? How do you train to to gouge someone's eyes out if they keep batting your hands away? Look up some info on vale tudo. It's the kind of fighting that happens in Brazil. There was a match between Rickson Gracie and a guy named Zulu. Zulu tried gouging Rickson's eyes. Guess who won? Rickson, using techniques that happen all the time in the UFC.

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Well, things like Krav Maga are scientifically designed to inflict the maximum damage despite resistance, and to utilize the way your opponent attacks you to minimize his ability to defend himself.

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Are they being taught Krav Maga? You have to undesrtand that there is no art out there that can beat any other, garaunteed. It really comes down to the practioner and the quality and quantity of their training. This is why there's a lot of crosstraining done in MMA. If any one particular way was the "best" way, just about everyone would do that.

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You say define lethal, well, a blow to the kneck can kill you, a blow to the back/side of the head can kill you, a proper strike to the nose can cause immediate brain damage, blows to the spinal chord can paralyze instantly.

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Many of these require precision striking that can really only come from repeated practice. (btw I'm pretty sure the nose technique won't work) SEALs have so many other jobs that they are far more likely to actually perform to spend time training in a style of combat that the probability of actually doing is slim.

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Unfortunately, its not enough for a UFC'er to know theoretically that you can kill someone by hitting them in the neck, you need to know the techniques involved. It's possible that UFC'ers know this. If it is true that UFC'ers know all seal techniques and would use them in the fight than it is really seal vs seal though isnt it?

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Well, most martial arts make it clear that the techniques involved can kill. I'm sure the fighters are very aware of this and in a theoretical death match would have no trouble doing those things if that's what it took. But if these types of strikes are what the SEALs are training in, then that's mostly theory anyway. How would you know if you're applying a "lethal" technique incorrectly? You wouldn't really. How would the instructor know? Has he killed someone with said technique? Has he done it enough that he knows the ins and outs of it? Doubtful, at best.

And no, it would not really be a SEAL vs SEAL if the UFC fighter were to use those techniques because he's doing what he's trained to do. If you take those away from the UFC fighter, he's still got other techniques. Take those away from the SEAL, what does he have?

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I believe they exist because i have read about them, discussed them with seals, seen them demonstrated and because i have no reason to believe this is a giant conspiracy.

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It's not a giant conspiracy. It's just flawed training perpetuated by an inability to experiment and find out whether these techniques really work.

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But killing has become more scientifically efficient, see Krav Maga point above. And while UFC fighters probably have a cursory understanding of these moves, it is not what they are spending their time on training.

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1) KM is not about killing the other guy.
2) While UFC fighters might not spend their time on these specific techniques, they are spending far more time learning how to avoid being hit, how to fight from advantageous and disadvantageous positions, and how to absorb hits while fighting back. Do SEALs train in the techniques you mentioned while being punched and kicked? I doubt it. Do they train to fight on their back? You can't really apply any of those techniques you mentioned while on your back in the mount and a serious UFC fighter will know how to get you there.

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And if it is your contention that UFC fighters can tough anything out and just continue fighting you are being naive and ignoring the scientific aspects of fighting

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That wasn't the point. The point was that people have been punched in the back of the head, kicked in the kidneys (Royce often heel-kicked the [censored] out of people's kidneys while on his back, yet they didn't give up right away), kneed in the balls and still kept fighting. It's evidence that these "lethal" techniques are not as lethal as you think and that people don't just shut off when they're applied to trained and conditioned people.

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Pain from a pressure point strike will literally inhibit your ability to think.

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Now I know you have no real experience with martial arts. I train right now in Aikido. I know about pressure points. They most certainly do not inhibit your ability to think. Nor are they easy to apply to someone who does more than just sits there. If pressure points worked so well, we'd see them in the UFC. There's no rule against using pressure points that I'm aware of.

You admittedly don't practice the training that the SEALs recieve and it's pretty obvious you have little or no martial arts experience. Go actually learn about the topic you're trying to argue because you're making yourself look foolish to everyone who's had experience in at least one of those.

[Blarg]

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How else can you train in lethal techniques? How do you train to to gouge someone's eyes out if they keep batting your hands away?

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Not in the ordinary way you're used to seeing, which in the Western world comes primarily from Japanese and Okinawan arts with perhaps a smattering of Korean.

But the Chinese have been doing precisely that for hundreds of years and probably thousands of years. Tai Chi and Wing Chun both make a specialty of it in their pushing hands and sticking hands, respectively, and some other Chinese arts have analogous training.

I agree with what you're saying about pressure points. Pressure points and compliance in general can be very hard to apply and require a high degree of skill. And some people have such high pain thresholds that they can take extraordinary abuse to their joints etc. without quitting the fight or calming down. That's one reason it often takes so many cops to hold down a single guy. Some guys just don't care if you're bending their wrist in ways it was never intended to move and might never recover from.

[K-mac]

I only got half way through the post and remembered that there was a fight with (with what i believe to be) an army Ranger, and Kark Kerr. IF my mind serves me correctly the Ranger was instrumental in the development and/or training in the self defense/hand to hand combat trainging of Rangers. I think the system was called RIPS at the time(who knows may still be). Well in the rpe fight interview he talks about how he is going to make hisopponent R.I.P.... i dont even think it went 5 minutes. Kerr knocked him out.

I will see if i can find the fight info somewhere.

Edit: i belive it was UFC 19 and Kerr knocks him out with a knee in 19 seconds.

[BCPVP]

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But the Chinese have been doing precisely that for hundreds of years and probably thousands of years. Tai Chi and Wing Chun both make a specialty of it in their pushing hands and sticking hands, respectively, and some other Chinese arts have analogous training.

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I don't do Tai Chi or Wing Chun, but I do know about both pushing hands and sticking hands (chi sao). But I'm not exactly seeing how those train you to gouge someone's eyes out better.

I think the problem with techniques that rely on striking the eyes, groin, and other sensitive areas is that as humans (especially ones trained in martial arts), we instinctively protect such areas. Mate that instinct with training in how to properly defend such areas (which just about every martial art does) and a system that relies on such strikes is all but shut down, just like a style like Tae Kwon Do (which I've studied) is practically useless against someone who's on top of you.

I have little experience with the SCARS training or whatever these special forces do. But I do have a wide variety of experience, both personal and observed, of many different martial arts and MMA in general. I've also spoken to former military-turned-martial artists who've said that the hand to hand fighting they received was basically for conditioning and for instilling a combative spirit.

[BCPVP]

A quick search and I believe the guy's name is Greg Stott. Mark Kerr defeated him with a knee to the head (KO) in 17 seconds.

edit: further searching found that Kerr threw just one knee to Stott's head. We can extrapolate that if Stott is out cold on the ground and the only way out of this Colosseum is death of the opponent, it would be easy for Kerr to kill Stott while he's defensless.

[ScottyP431]

BC,

I dont know why you're such a dick, but since you ignore 90 percent of what i say and focus on nit picking trivial details this will be my last response to you.

"Now I know you have no real experience with martial arts. I train right now in Aikido. I know about pressure points."

No, You dont. http://www.geocities.com/aikiju-jits...urePoints.html
Specifically, Knuckles under ears. Try google and you will learn more.

"Nor are they easy to apply to someone who does more than just sits there."
There are strikes that just require you to hit them, as with a punch.

"If pressure points worked so well, we'd see them in the UFC."

Wrong, from UFC rules, http://www.ufc.tv/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

One of the most effective defenses against someone trying to lock you up is to drop your elbow on the top of their shoulder, done correctly you can make their arm go numb and basically useless. I know this because I once tackled my friend and he did it to me. It sucked big time

"There's no rule against using pressure points that I'm aware of."

You dont seem to be aware of much, quite the know nothing know it all.

"I'm guessing that it's because they didn't receive enough quality training during their scheduled time. "

This is like saying if they go to the range on their own time it's cause they werent taught to shoot. An unwarranted moronic assertion.

"I looked him up. He had two fights and only won one of them. Big deal. "

I wasn't using his track record as an appeal to authority. A good non sequator by you.

"That's the problem. How do you train to kill someone using techniques without actually killing them? How do you know they'll work? At least with a rifle, you can shoot at targets or even use the MILES lasers. The fact of the matter is that a NHB fighter trains more in techniques that were designed to hurt people and do so against resisting training partners. Do the SEALs train eye gouges against someone who resists 100%? I doubt there'd be many SEALs that could see if they did."

You are stupid. By your logic, no UFC'er could know how to break someones arm without having actually done it in practice. Im guessing there is someone in the seal outfit who has at some point killed someone, I'll go out on that limb. You also ignored that UFC'ers do not train against 100 percent resistance. You have never been able to come up with a coherent answer to the fact that the rules favor a certain style of fighting by limiting effective responses.

You really don't know jack [censored] about MMA or martial arts in general, do you?"

I'm guessing your info comes from something like this
http://www.skinheads.net/forums/arch...hp/t-1336.html

But since you have been unable to find anyone who agrees with you to cite as proof, I'm left to wonder.

"If you want to reduce being hit, grappling is an excellent way to do so, especially if the other guy isn't trained in grappling."

You are a douche, and wrong. Grapling is a great way to avoid traditional punching. Sort of the kill Bill/bruce lee dilemna of how do you hit something with full force that is only 2 inches away. You do it by increasing your recoil speed to exert maximum force, something seals are definately taught. They are also taught to go after the most sensitive areas that don't need a mike tyson blow to produce injury. Same question i posed to the colonel, how do you grapel without at some point exposing your kneck or RAS to 1 strike, which is all thats necessary. All your examples are convuluted like "if im choking you from behind". How did u get there? At some point you were within arms length for me to hit you, and you had to try and grab me while defending yourself. You only have 2 hands.

"That's why Royce was such a force in the early UFC days; because few people were training in ground fighting and thought their stand-up game was good enough to not have to worry about going to the ground."

Their stand up game that had to comply with UFC rules. Every fighting contest that has rules produces certain effective strategies and counter strategies. Did Ali train more for boxing than a seal? yes. Would the rope a dope work on a seal?

" Try punching me while I have you tight in the guard. Or while I'm behind you locking on a rear naked choke. "

1. How did you get to these positions?
2. YOu are completely ignoring me, punches are generally inneffective and useless, true. UFC prohibits most other kinds of strikes (elbow for example) so people are left with punches. You are still dumb and not responding to a thing i say.


"It won't work because it's designed to beat someone who tries to do that."

EXACTLY YOU GO TARD!!!! UFC'ers use techniques designed to combat someone innefctually punching them, WHICH A SEAL IS NOT GOING TO DO.

"If they're employing the techniques you described, yes. How else can you train in lethal techniques? How do you train to to gouge someone's eyes out if they keep batting your hands away? Look up some info on vale tudo. It's the kind of fighting that happens in Brazil. There was a match between Rickson Gracie and a guy named Zulu. Zulu tried gouging Rickson's eyes. Guess who won? Rickson, using techniques that happen all the time in the UFC. "

Is Zulu a seal? Why is this example relevant? You keep reducing things to a unidimensional attack. Yes you can protect your eyes. Its harder to protect your eyes, throat, spine, groin, kidneys, spleen, instep- all at the same time.


"Are they being taught Krav Maga?" Yes. And things like SCARS which purport to be more effective still.

"You have to undesrtand that there is no art out there that can beat any other, garaunteed. It really comes down to the practioner and the quality and quantity of their training."

I agree. My point is that on average seals are taught techniques that are
1. Easier
2. More lethal
So they will beat the average UFC'er.

"This is why there's a lot of crosstraining done in MMA. If any one particular way was the "best" way, just about everyone would do that."

Yes and no. People are trying to find the "best way" that operates under UFC rules.


"Well, most martial arts make it clear that the techniques involved can kill. I'm sure the fighters are very aware of this and in a theoretical death match would have no trouble doing those things if that's what it took."

Blarg slays this argument above. Much of physical activity is practice/muscle memory etc. They dont train to kill. Period. Do they know some stuff that could kill, probably. Is it enough, probably not.


"But if these types of strikes are what the SEALs are training in, then that's mostly theory anyway. How would you know if you're applying a "lethal" technique incorrectly? You wouldn't really. How would the instructor know? Has he killed someone with said technique? Has he done it enough that he knows the ins and outs of it? Doubtful, at best."

This is answered above... But i would like to point out again it is really really stupid. There have been scientiffic analysis done on things like Krav maga, they know it works. It isn't "theory". God this may be the worst argument for anything ever.

"And no, it would not really be a SEAL vs SEAL if the UFC fighter were to use those techniques because he's doing what he's trained to do. If you take those away from the UFC fighter, he's still got other techniques. Take those away from the SEAL, what does he have?"

I understand this. My point was that i said "seals have better technique". You said "UFC'ers know seal technique". Obviously if they know everything a seal knows plus have some other advantage they will win. No one is arguing that. I was making a joke. You weren't getting it. I'm not surprised.

"It's not a giant conspiracy. It's just flawed training perpetuated by an inability to experiment and find out whether these techniques really work. "

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. WHAT? Did you really say this? Becuase every military in the country doesnt enter the octagon they don't know if their techniques work???

"1) KM is not about killing the other guy."

Actually it is. In the 40's when Israelis weren't allowed to carry firearms thats exactly what it was designed to do. True, in America the Local Dojo you attend teaches you not to kill people with it, but many practicioners do so accidentally. Try reading something. You can start here
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=886726


2) "While UFC fighters might not spend their time on these specific techniques, they are spending far more time learning how to avoid being hit"

How long does it take to learn this? What i am saying is that there is diminishing marginal returns to practicing this and other fighting techniques.

" how to fight from advantageous and disadvantageous positions"

yes seals dont learn how to fight when upside down and on their back. They learn to kill. IF they get in that position odds are high it is already over.

" and how to absorb hits while fighting back."
Yes, KM and other scientiffic fighting forms are like JKD if that helps you understand it, they learn to use attacks to their benefit.

"Do SEALs train in the techniques you mentioned while being punched and kicked?"
I'm sure at some point they spar with a partner yea

" Do they train to fight on their back?"
See above. I'm unaware of the physical law that makes it impossible to hit someone in the throat while on your back.

"You can't really apply any of those techniques you mentioned while on your back in the mount and a serious UFC fighter will know how to get you there."

He knows how to get you there when you are unable to unleash total retaliation. It is literally impossible to both get close enough to grab someone (which requires both hands) and fully protect yourself. I hate to beat a dead horse, this only works in UFC because the most lethal responses are ILLEGAL.

"That wasn't the point. The point was that people have been punched in the back of the head, kicked in the kidneys (Royce often heel-kicked the [censored] out of people's kidneys while on his back, yet they didn't give up right away)"

This seems to prove my point that the UFC'ers they were fighting didnt know proper technique... And you are speaking of rarities with anecdotal evidence.

"kneed in the balls and still kept fighting. It's evidence that these "lethal" techniques are not as lethal as you think and that people don't just shut off when they're applied to trained and conditioned people."

What training teaches you to breathe when your windpipe is forcibly closed? What training teaches you to send signals to your arms and legs through something other than your spinal chord? Or teaches your brain to operate without blood? Can training help you overcome the impact of blows, yes. But you are assuming it can do absurd things.

Why don't you try reading this as well http://kravmaganewyork.net/kravmagaenglish.pdf

And seriously, this is OOT and an internet argument, why you had to be such a d-rocket is beyond me. Plus you know next to nothing, and can't make an educated argument to save your life. Post a reference to defend anything you are saying PLEASE. Untill then i will continue to believe people like Aviram over college student from local dojo in Wisconsin.

[Blarg]

Those are the targets you specifically train for by doing the exercise. You get to those targets by going through and around the natural or practiced defenses someone has, and through their offense. That's what those exercises do. They're not about moving your arms together. That is a popular misconception of what those exercises are about. They are actually very goal directed, not about themselves.

A tai chi or wing chun man has zero interest in doing pushing or sticking hands in a fight. It's a very competitive training exercise, and a great one. But he merely wants to whack you one. The place for sticking comes in only when the attempt to whack you gets interrupted by the establishment of a bridge, that is, contact between your limb and an opponent's limb. You don't seek it out; you'd rather be whacking someone. But these things can happen. You just want to get the interference out of the way and start whacking, and the exercise is a competitive way of dealing with trying to do that so your own strike (or throw) gets through. But you don't hang around doing sticking for fun. Your object is still to punch or poke the guy or whatever. And in learning by contact, by feel, instinctively how the body and its limbs move in offense and defense, and competitively trying to take advantage of that knowledge, someone practicing sticking is constantly training in getting through. The eyes are the highest priority, but actually you are training to instinctively respond to all openings the moment they occur. The whole thing is ultimately working toward the strike, and past active and determined opposition.

Properly defending vital areas is easier said than done, just like hitting them is. But people do train intensively to hit them and practice it constantly. It will always come down to who is the better man, though, not who knows more techniques or ones he presumes are better. If you know the best techniques but the other guy is faster or has better timing, or is just in better condition or has higher pain tolerance, you may well lose. Technique is just one part of the equation and sometimes not the one that matters.

I'll grant you that groin kicking is surprisingly hard, as there are very strong instincts to protect that area. And that it is very possible to fight on after being kicked in the groin. I have. But if you can get a hand to the head area at all, you need very little speed or power to reach the throat or eyes and do damage there. The tricky part of course is getting the hand through to the head area. Once through, you can often do what you want. Including go for the eyes or perhaps the throat. I've had many a sparring clash come to an end when my fingers were clamped on someone's nuts, around their throat, or drumming along their eyebrows.

Regarding tae kwon do, being an art for applying at a distance, and an art that generally puts you on one leg, it is indeed useless when someone's on top of you. Wing Chun is one of many that actually favor close in fighting, though, as do all systems that teach a variation of sticking. Different styles of course work differently and are stronger in different ranges.

[ScottyP431]

Blarg,

Your posts are always intelligent and on target.

[The Truth]

Reading through this thread made me mad [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Lots to say.

If you get punched in the neck you are a [censored] idiot and deserve to die.

The skill set the seals use to kill someone quickly generally only applies to a fairly untrained opponent.

It is extremely difficult to do what you want to a trained fighter.

Alot of the rules in UFC are fairly new. In addition, the guys that fight in UFC often also fight in other large competitions with fewer rules. Pride for example.

Royce is drawing dead against the figthers of today. Anyone who trains BJJ by itself is drawing dead. Good luck with the goofy waist grab takedowns.

I think one of this guys arguments is that a guy who pushing a course that was similar to a seal course said in an advertisement for the course that the course had alot to offer that you couldn't learn in UFC training. To top that off, he said this in 95' when MMA was still in rapid development. Good luck with that arguement.

I also think he said something about the seals conditioning being better than a UFC fighters conditioning. Not only are you wrong you are a moran [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Nothing against seal conditioning, I am sure it is awesome for what they do. However, condition for a fight is a whole seperate ball game.

I remember I would be in awesome shape after basetball season. I could run a couple miles, practice, then run suicides all day, endurance was fine.

Then I get on the mat and am gasping for air after a round. It would take me a month to get into any kind of fighting shape.

You have to train endurance specifically for fighting, its not just general endurance, you use too many muscles too fast and too consistently.

For anything you do, the condition program must be specific for that event.

A UFC fighter has much better conditioning for a fight than a special forces person. Its like saying a seal could play basketball longer than Jordan. Just silly.


If we could set up a fight between a seal, and a UFC fighter, would you honestly take even money and bet the seal?

I think we could get rich off of morans if we set this fight up. Everytime this gets discussed in a group ive been in, there have been several people who refuse to believe anybody could beat up a seal under any circumstances.

I've never fought a seal, but I've fought 2 army rangers. One was trained pretty extensively in MMA, and he was a bad mofo. He tapped me many times. The other guy was untrained, and we ended up going after being pushed by some friends. The matched lasted like 7 seconds maybe? I am not all that good as an MMA fighter (no where near the level of one of the UFC guys), but I did have a good bit of training. I really dont think its close.


blake