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  #31  
Old 12-27-2005, 06:06 PM
bobman0330 bobman0330 is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

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P.S. There are other countries who are now willing to intervene in Darfur.

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Kinda late now, don't you think? Besides, what's stopping them?

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Very late, but it will happen now.

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A successful EU intervention in Darfur would vastly raise my opinion of Europeans. Just in case you needed any more incentive. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #32  
Old 12-27-2005, 06:56 PM
Arnfinn Madsen Arnfinn Madsen is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

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A successful EU intervention in Darfur would vastly raise my opinion of Europeans. Just in case you needed any more incentive. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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We are not member of the European Union, but our government has promised that Norwegian troops will be on the ground during 2006 ( [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] still not quick). They have said an international force will be established and that they are discussing with other countries who will deploy what etc.. It remains to see if it will be able to protect everybody though, I doubt how big it will be....... (it also needs to maintain peace in Southern Sudan).
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  #33  
Old 12-28-2005, 11:30 AM
Martin Aigner Martin Aigner is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

This is just BS. Living in Austria I followed the stroy about executing this guy a little bit, and it was hardly ever mentioned, that the guy to be executed was black. The story was more about the turnaround in his life (former gang leader, then writing childrenīs books, affirming that he was innocent, ...)

Now this was what the story was all about. It had nothing to do that he was black.

Martin Aigner
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  #34  
Old 12-28-2005, 11:34 AM
Arnfinn Madsen Arnfinn Madsen is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

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This is just BS. Living in Austria I followed the stroy about executing this guy a little bit, and it was hardly ever mentioned, that the guy to be executed was black. The story was more about the turnaround in his life (former gang leader, then writing childrenīs books, affirming that he was innocent, ...)

Now this was what the story was all about. It had nothing to do that he was black.

Martin Aigner

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Ok, thx for the info. I wrote "I think", because it was an assumption. I did not write: "it was because he was black".
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  #35  
Old 12-28-2005, 12:37 PM
Martin Aigner Martin Aigner is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

I might be wrong, but as far as I know the reason for A.S. to be upset with Austria (and particulary Graz) was, that there not only was lots of critisism for him not using his power as govenor to pardon the guy. It even went so far that some politicians wanted to have his Austrian citicenship terminated (he has both, Austrian and US citizenship). The politicians who suggested this were, as far as I know, not leading members of any party in Austria, but local unknown local politicians. Probably they saw their chance for their own 15 minutes of fame. Nobody but A.S. really took them seriously. It might be that he was sort of upset that some unimportant politicians criticised the governor of California. Anyway, to tell the truth, not too many people really cared that his name was taken from the stadium. Actually, for marketing reasons itīs even better this way, since A.S. didnīt pay for his name to be put on the stadium, and now itīs possible to find some company to pay for it (quite common in Germany these days).

What really hurts Graz a little bit is, that A.S. doesnīt allow Graz to use his name for any other marketing possibilities either.

Anyway, to understand the reasoning for Austrians (and other Europeans) to be upset about his decision one probably has to grow up in a society where death penatly is a big NO. Due to a higher socialistic influence in politics, there is less violence on average in society in Europe. A couple of years before you didnīt find any street gangs or "dangerous areas" the way you do in the US. Of course we had to pay the price for it in higher taxes. These days, this isnīt that true anymore in some states in Europe (see e.g. the riots in the suburbs of Paris). There are different reasons for this, such as a bad economy, especially in Germany; lots of immigrants without proper arrangements for integrations; cutting the social contributions from the state due to less money (due to bad economy), ... . Still, without knowing the figures (and being too lazy to google them) Iīm sure that there are still way less killings and other serious assaults in Europe than in the US. Therefore the call for death penalties isnīt nearly as strong as it is in the US. Maybe, and we all hope that it will never occur, there would be a call for death penalty if we had the same statistical numbers regarding serious assaults as the US. But I seriously doubt that a capital punishment does or can change the likeihood of any crime.

One other thing to consider, why Europeans are against the decission of AS is that the US lately has become to be known as a state who kicks at human rights whenever it fits their opinion. Now one can argue that there are way worse countries than the US (China, Russia, North Korea, ....) regarding human rights, but there is a huge difference: The US was some sort of example for Europe, the US freed us from the Nazis, the US was our strong partner against the Eastern Bloc. Now these days there is a huge gap between Europe and the US (due to tons of reasons). If A.S. had shown any mercy on that guy (and all the other people on death row so far and to be), it would have had some sort of symbolic character for Europeans. Since he didnīt pardon that guy, this fits once again in the above mentioned gap between Europe and the US.

One last thing: Of course we know that there are people on death row on lots of states of the US, but California is, at least for us Austrians, the state we follow the most.

Martin Aigner
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  #36  
Old 12-28-2005, 12:43 PM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

The death penalty isn't regarded as a human rights issue here, it is just another punishment. It depends alot on the state, but I doubt it comes anywhere close to Europe.

In general though Europe seems really soft on its criminals. I mean why don't you give Milosevic a sensual message.
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  #37  
Old 12-28-2005, 01:10 PM
Martin Aigner Martin Aigner is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

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The death penalty isn't regarded as a human rights issue here, it is just another punishment

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Of course thatīs true. What I wanted to say is that the way the US treats human rights these days is in unacceptable for Europeans. Now if A.S. would have pardoned that guy it would have been a small sign that the US acts not always in a "I-feel-this-is-my-right-and-therefore-I-do-it" and "Who-cares-what-the-other-think" mode.

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In general though Europe seems really soft on its criminals. I mean why don't you give Milosevic a sensual message.

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Well, I guess that just fits in the picture, that the average European has about the average American.

The reason why we donīt give a "sensual message" is, that we live in a constitutional state, and EVERYBODY, good or bad, has the same rights! I hope, you didnīt mean it that way it came across.

Martin Aigner
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  #38  
Old 12-28-2005, 01:16 PM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

When you are a genocidal mass murdered you deserve to be punished. He isn't being punished. He will live out his days in relative comfort and security.

There is no sense of justice there. And no real deterent against future actions. If I'm thinking of committing genocide, and the worst thing that will happen to me is I'll get 3 square a day in a clean prison with TV, basketball, and walks in the garden then why shouldn't I.

If Hitler were alive today would he recieve the same treatment as Milosevic? If so your lucky we've protected you from such men for so long.
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  #39  
Old 12-28-2005, 01:24 PM
Martin Aigner Martin Aigner is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

If he dies before there is a verdict, than so be it. I think society as a whole is better off to give everybody the same rights, no matter what he did. But I guess we will never agree on this one. Although this makes for an interesting topic.
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  #40  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:57 PM
Arnfinn Madsen Arnfinn Madsen is offline
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Default Re: Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

If you look upon Europeans and handling you should look upon the totality when judging (how long he was able to stay in power etc.) the effort, and the effort as a whole was a shame [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]. We are a bit better prepared to prevent something similar to happen again, but not well enough prepared [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img].
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