On the Edge - IX

[jedi]

What does everyone think of this week's article? I'm not sure that it helps with my low limit opponents who are fairly straightforward, but will this help me against the tricky players that I'll see as I move up?

Villain raises the river only to fold to a 3-bet? That is rare indeed as the pot is now huge and he'll likely call with ANY part of the board, despite hero's image and 3-bet.

Barron, what did you think of Villain's image of you (not that you were tight, per se, but of your play and willingness to be tricky?)

I have trouble balancing the "Don't fold when the pot is big" against the "When the opponent is betting when he's sure you're calling, it's not a bluff." Makes for a lot of river spewing on my part.

[GrannyMae]

i'm not sure i understood the logic that caused him to think he had no part of the board.

there were rags and high cards out there. if he was read for a total bluff pre-flop, then there was too many ways the board could still have hit him. this includes Q-high, better kicker. i don't like the move on the river and think it will be long term EV-, even against a complete maniac.

i'm trying not to think this is another results oriented article, but that's how i see it.

jmho

[Ulysses]

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i don't like the move on the river and think it will be long term EV-

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Granny, you are incorrect. The opponent folded after he raised.

[GrannyMae]

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i don't like the move on the river and think it will be long term EV-

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Granny, you are incorrect. The opponent folded after he raised.

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i know that. i'm talking about using this move as a habit against similar players.

i could be wrong

[SA125]

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i don't like the move on the river and think it will be long term EV-


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Granny, you are incorrect. The opponent folded after he raised.


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i know that. i'm talking about using this move as a habit against similar players.

i could be wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

Granny, I'm guessing you missed the sarcasm here.

[pyedog]

I'm glad to see that I wasn't the only person who was bothered by this article. I am trying to move up to the lower mid limits (10-20) and I would like to add some non-ABC moves to my arsenal. But these are not the sorts of high variance, ultra risky, slim edge moves that I would consider incorporating.

Barron, I find your articles to be thought provoking but if you could write up some hands that are a little bit more mainstream but also incorporate some tough non-ABC decisions then I personally would prefer that. I hope that doesn't sound like a contradiction, but I'm referring to hands where you are pressing a thin edge based on a strong read, but without needing to raise with complete trash against a tricky LAG.

[HDPM]

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i don't like the move on the river and think it will be long term EV-

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Granny, you are incorrect. The opponent folded after he raised.

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You are incorrigible El D. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[TwoNiner]

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and the two tightest players were to my immediate left, allowing me to raise if it was folded to me to pick up the blinds.

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I knew his hand was terrible as he'd raised every time he'd posted, and it was folded to him. He'd shown down hands ranging from one-gappers (six-four offsuit), to suited cards (nine-deuce suited), to Broadway-rag (jack-trey offsuit), to pocket pairs (aces)

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These tight ass blinds sure are calling down a lot in the few hours Tony has been raising his after cigarrete cutoff post when the table folds around to him. If this guy shows down every possible hand range imaginable (including aces) in this certain situation, I still think it's wrong to put him on 7-2 or or something of the sort. The guy raised 6-4. I think your most likely hands for a player of this sort are still something like small suited connector or a big pair. Or maybe more likely he has just seen the futility in raising any of the above said hands since these blinds have turned into calling stations in the last couple of hours. I'd make no read and dump the hand. If your read was right, call flop and raise the auto turn bet.

[pipes]

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These tight ass blinds sure are calling down a lot in the few hours Tony has been raising his after cigarrete cutoff post when the table folds around to him.

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This is a very good point.

I've played in the 10/20; 20/40 games at Foxwoods often. The games are very good. IMO There is really no need to get involved in nonsense like this with Q6o in this situation.

Can we vote these articles off the island?

[jedi]

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i'm not sure i understood the logic that caused him to think he had no part of the board.

there were rags and high cards out there. if he was read for a total bluff pre-flop, then there was too many ways the board could still have hit him. this includes Q-high, better kicker. i don't like the move on the river and think it will be long term EV-, even against a complete maniac.

i'm trying not to think this is another results oriented article, but that's how i see it.

jmho

[/ QUOTE ]

I just have so many questions about this that I'm sure better players can answer them. My games are likely to be calling fests which is why I'm not going to be firing off all these bets at better players. Some questions.

1) Why steal here? I understand the extra money in the pot from the random hand posting, Q6o isn't the best of hands to be stealing with especially if you think it'll get called, which hero is sure of. Sure, you have tight blinds and a good table image, but the pot isn't that big and I save my fight for another hand.

2) Villain's range of hands. I can accept that villian will raise from this spot with any pocket pair, or any Ace (or even any King), but is it too much to think that villain will just check his option with 45o or J2s?

3) "His raise was as all his other check-raises on the flop: indicating a draw." Obviously Barron was at the table and can speak to this better, but why can't it be top pair or 2 pair? 2 pair would surely check-raise, and 1 pair could be check raising hoping to blow you off a missed AK, or trying to find out where he's at vs. a possible overpair.

4) Villain's call on the turn. What does villain have now? If he has a pair, then his call tells me that he wants to showdown the hand. If he has a draw, then the pot is big enough for him to call.

5) Villain's bet on the river. If villain called on the turn with just a pair, why would he bet out here? He wanted to see a showdown, right? The pot is too big for him to bet and fold to a raise. I think villain is on a completely missed draw and was betting to try to steal the pot from you. You didn't oblige, so villain folds "knowing" that you have him beat.

I think this isn't a river value raise. Better hands call you anyways as the pot is now big. Missed draw hands will fold.

- At my games, people are calling me with anything, so I'm very reluctant to put all these bets in the pot here with that kind of hand. I'm not a great player, so my thinking is almost certainly off, but if the great players can tell me where I'm wrong, then I think I can improve as I move up in limits.