A draw in a big pot...56s...

[ihardlyknowher]

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i don't like leading because of the possibility that PFR will raise and isolate me with a superior hand...

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If all of your 15 outs are clean, you are a 64.52% favorite. There is probably not a superior hand out there.

That said, I still love the way you played it for this reason:

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leading has the potential to trap only the BB, while going for a c/r has the potential to trap 3 players...

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Sadly, the first thing I thought when I read this hand was lead the flop. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[jjacky]

i share your oppinion, but i dont like your reasoning. it is VERY unlikely that the PFR has a superior hand. only a higher flush draw and a set have more than 50% equity against your hand.

[thirddan]

when i saw the flop in the is hand i figured taht goign for a c/r is the best play as most would agree, but when its two bets back to me i had to take a second to think about 3betting vs coldcalling...

3 betting
Pros
-get money into the pot with favorable equity
-possibly get free card on the turn if i miss (unlikely)
Cons
-kill the action by check/3betting (seen as monster)
-isolate myself against a superior hand if PFR caps and knocks everyone out
- can't c/r if i hit draw (true or not?)

Cold calling
Pros
- can probably c/r if i hit draw trapping for more bets

Cons
- don't pump draw for value
- looks like i have a draw to anyone paying attention

anything else im not thinking of?
is this a total waste of time?

[thirddan]

its true that i am most likely a favorite, but in this situation being out of position and isolated against a "made" hand that has control of the play kinda sucks (it doesn't suck but its not the greatest)...

correct me if im wrong, but if he has control of the hand and position then he has taken away some of my weapons for extracting the maximum when i hit, while he can extract while im still drawing...if my draw doesn't come on the turn then i have to check/call, but if it does then it may become obvious (more likely if i complete flush than straight) and i will probably have to lead because of the possibility that it will be checked thru and i miss a bet. Also, a lone A might not call a c/r anyway...the same goes for making my draw on the river, i can't really c/r a flush because it looks like i have a draw after i check/call the turn and i have to lead...

just a lot of babbling or does this make sense?

[akvsaq]

I like the check 3B b/c of the enormous equity. How about not making any improvements on the turn? Would you bet out or check and call? How about catching a pair on the turn, does that change anything??

[ihardlyknowher]

My thoughts in italics

[ QUOTE ]
when i saw the flop in the is hand i figured taht goign for a c/r is the best play as most would agree, but when its two bets back to me i had to take a second to think about 3betting vs coldcalling...

3 betting
Pros
-get money into the pot with favorable equity
-possibly get free card on the turn if i miss (unlikely)
Cons
-kill the action by check/3betting (seen as monster)

The action on the flop is probably done already. And if you hit your straight or get 3 players to the turn. You can pull of another c/r and trap the field again with an strong equity edge


-isolate myself against a superior hand if PFR caps and knocks everyone out

Not likely you are facing a superior hand at this point

- can't c/r if i hit draw (true or not?)

Probably true for a flush, but hitting your straight would be so much fun. Plus, you might want to c/r even if you miss(see above). And even for the flush, you will continue to get callers as the pot is so huge.


Cold calling
Pros
- can probably c/r if i hit draw trapping for more bets


Cons
- don't pump draw for value
- looks like i have a draw to anyone paying attention



anything else im not thinking of?
is this a total waste of time?
absolutely not, you are helping me increase my win rate. Thank you.


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[thirddan]

if i miss on the turn then i will check/call...

as for pair outs, if i hit a pair on the turn then betting out might be correct, since the flop didn't get capped i imagine that going runner runner for two pair would hold up...

[jjacky]

i think the solution to the problems you have, getting isolated by a made hand is the following: 3-bet the flop when you get isolated. you are the favorite in the hand and you have the initiative back. if he caps it, check call unimproved, if he calls, bet out on the turn.

i don't want to advocate a bet on the flop, i just want to point out that it is no problem to get isolated in a situation like that.

[thirddan]

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Not likely you are facing a superior hand at this point

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yeah, jacky brought this up also, while my chances to improve may make my hand "superior" isolating myself against a "made" hands such as AK isn't great since they have position and can extract the max while i am drawing (although its not that big a deal cuz of my super draw) but i don't have the ability to punish them when i hit my draw, especially a flush becuase i am out of position and may whiff i try and c/r...

[thirddan]

hmmm, im not sure i follow you...

are you saying that you would rather bet/3bet the flop, even though most of the time i will knock out 3 players behind hte PFR that are more likely to call one bet and possibly pay me off when i hit?

while i understand that i have a nice edge, i think that the possibility of getting 1or2 bets from 3 players is better than getting 2or4 from 1 player, especially when it might provide me the opportunity to c/r again on the turn if i hit or pick up more outs by pairing...

i think that getting isolated on the flop sucks because it will damage my potential to collect bets from multiple people on the later streets...