Do you support Bush?

[andyfox]

Approximately 50% of the electorate voted for Bush in 2000 and again in 2004.

The administration agrees with your reason for opposing Hussein. WMDs and 9/1 were excuses, not reasons for the invasion. They thought they were making the world safe for us to prosper in it. They see the Middle East as the key to remaking the world in their image.

As for the phone tapping, the administration could have accomplished whatever it wanted going through the FISA court, which has approved tens of thousands of wiretaps while rejecting only a handful. The fact that they didn't lends one to believe they have something to hide. They can protect us from terrorists using the FISA system. The idea that the president has inherent powers to wiretap or because of the congressional resolution to use force in the wake of 9/11 is a naked, undemocratic power grab. This was stated very clearly by Vice Presidnet Cheney on his way back from Iraq when he said we need to increase the powers of the president.

If we let paranoia about our enemies effect us so that we allow our leaders inordinate power over our lives, we will face a bigger problem at least as big as the terrorists.

[ALawPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the phone tapping, the administration could have accomplished whatever it wanted going through the FISA court, which has approved tens of thousands of wiretaps while rejecting only a handful. The fact that they didn't lends one to believe they have something to hide.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most likely it was that they knew the Dems would play politics with it if they found out the administration was requesting permission to spy. So they hoped they could get away with it. I'm not a fan of violating the constitution, but I'm more concerned about obeying the spirit of it rather than the proper technical procedure.

Due process does exist for a reason, but I'm happy to let this one slide because frankly there are more important things to be debating right now.


Also I'm surprised this poll is as high in support of Bush as it is (25% when I checked). His approval rating is hovering around the low-30s and I would think the selection bias of an internet forum (generally younger, more urban people.... especially a poker forum) would have a bigger impact.

[ QUOTE ]
Due process does exist for a reason, but I'm happy to let this one slide because frankly there are more important things to be debating right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just scary that you could feel this way about the constitution of the US. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[andyfox]

"Most likely it was that they knew the Dems would play politics with it if they found out the administration was requesting permission to spy. So they hoped they could get away with it."

I don't buy this. The FISA court had been used thousands of times. For example, in 1996, under a Democratic president, the FISA court approved over 800 surveillance and physical search orders. If the Republicans didn't make hay with that against Clinton, why would they have worried about the Dems doing that against Bush? Especially in the wake of 9/11, I don't see how the administration could have thought the Dems could make political hay with this.

The problem with obeying the "spirit" of the law, rather than the "proper technical procedure," it that the spirit is open to each person's personal interpretation of that spirit. According to Attorney General Gonzalez, the president has the inherent right to wiretap without a court order to protect the country. If that's the case, why do we even need a FISA court? I thought the Constitution protected us from warrantless wiretaps, not that it gave the president the inherent right to do it when he decided it was OK.

[ALawPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't buy this. The FISA court had been used thousands of times. For example, in 1996, under a Democratic president, the FISA court approved over 800 surveillance and physical search orders. If the Republicans didn't make hay with that against Clinton, why would they have worried about the Dems doing that against Bush?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not talking about the Reps doing the same thing to Clinton or claiming one action is more justified than another. You're making the assumption that what I would condone for Bush I would condemn for Clinton. I'm not partisan enough for that to be the case.

[ QUOTE ]
Especially in the wake of 9/11, I don't see how the administration could have thought the Dems could make political hay with this.

[/ QUOTE ]

HA! Yeah, because the wake of 9/11 has really stopped them in the past....

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with obeying the "spirit" of the law, rather than the "proper technical procedure," it that the spirit is open to each person's personal interpretation of that spirit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize, and as far as my personal interpretation goes, Bush didn't violate the spirit of the law. If someone else thinks differently, then they should feel differently. I went on to say "due process exists for a reason", and that reason is to protect our rights. In this case it is my opinion that such protection would have been moot, and as a result I'm not gonna worry about it.

[andyfox]

"I'm not talking about the Reps doing the same thing to Clinton or claiming one action is more justified than another. You're making the assumption that what I would condone for Bush I would condemn for Clinton. I'm not partisan enough for that to be the case."

I wasn't talking about your personal viewpoint. I was addressing your surmisal about why Bush might have chosen to handle things the way he did.

"HA! Yeah, because the wake of 9/11 has really stopped them in the past...."

In the wake of 9/11, the president had a 90% approval rating. The initiative authorizing the use of force breezed through Congress. The Patriot Act went through easily as well. Had Bush called in the Democratic leaders and said here's what I'm going to do, he wouldn't have had any trouble at all. It's only in the wake of the invasion of Iraq that his troubles in the polls have mounted. His 90% approval rating tumbled and he would have lost the election if John Kerry could have walked and chewed gum simultaneously.

"I realize, and as far as my personal interpretation goes, Bush didn't violate the spirit of the law."

Which law are we talking about here, FISA?

[ALawPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
In the wake of 9/11, the president had a 90% approval rating. The initiative authorizing the use of force breezed through Congress. The Patriot Act went through easily as well. Had Bush called in the Democratic leaders and said here's what I'm going to do, he wouldn't have had any trouble at all. It's only in the wake of the invasion of Iraq that his troubles in the polls have mounted. His 90% approval rating tumbled and he would have lost the election if John Kerry could have walked and chewed gum simultaneously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? What you said was that the Dems wouldn't play politics with these wiretaps "in the wake of 9/11". I took that to mean that you consider us to still be in the wake of 9/11. Regardless of why he has lost bi-partisan support, the fact remains, and you admit it here (right?), the Dems are not unwilling to play politics with something like this. I don't really see what you're trying to say, the "wake of 9/11" was your comment, not mine - my original point was that by going around the courts it's more likely that the Bush administration was trying to dodge the political heat than that they actually feared the court would reject their request.

What exactly do you think Bush was trying to hide? Do you think he was eavesdropping on teenage girls and wacking off? I'm serious though, what are you actually getting at?

I don't mean to sound confrontational, I'm just confused what your point is.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
Huh? What you said was that the Dems wouldn't play politics with these wiretaps "in the wake of 9/11". I took that to mean that you consider us to still be in the wake of 9/11. Regardless of why he has lost bi-partisan support, the fact remains, and you admit it here (right?), the Dems are not unwilling to play politics with something like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF is "playing politics", anyway? I really have little to no conception of what this means, despite how much I hear it.

...okay, that's not entirely true; I think I know what people mean when they say it, but someone humor me anyway and explain what 'playing politics' is. Feel free to PM me if this is an inappropriate thread hijack (not that this thread was very narrow to begin with, though).

[andyfox]

No need to apologize, let me try being clearer.

I originally said, "As for the phone tapping, the administration could have accomplished whatever it wanted going through the FISA court, which has approved tens of thousands of wiretaps while rejecting only a handful. The fact that they didn't lends one to believe they have something to hide."

You replied, "Most likely it was that they knew the Dems would play politics with it if they found out the administration was requesting permission to spy. So they hoped they could get away with it."

The policy of wiretapping without getting FISA approval started, apparently, directly after 9/11. Directly after 9/11, the president got whatever he wanted. Had he gone to the congressional leadership and said, listen guys, I'm afraid we're gonna get hit again if we have to keep going to the FISA court, I'm gonna bug some guys who we know are terrorists without getting FISA approval, I'll keep you posted on what's happening, my sense is they would have gone along. The administration claims they kept the congress informed, but it's hard to tell exactly what they told them and how honest they were. Even Frist said he was told what was appropriate for him to be told. I interpret that somewhat enigmatic comment to mean that Frist knows they didn't tell him some things.

I have no idea what Bush was trying to hide. What I do know, from his comments about the wiretapping, from the attorney general's comments about inherent presidential power, and from the vice president's comments about restoring the presidency to its rightful position of power, it that they feel they can interpret the spirit of the law without honoring the letter of it.

I don't see how going around the court would be dodging political heat. There would have been no heat had they gone to the court. It's SOP, done by presidents of both parties for a long time. The only heat that would be generated would be if they didn't go to the court.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
The administration agrees with your reason for opposing Hussein. WMDs and 9/1 were excuses, not reasons for the invasion. They thought they were making the world safe for us to prosper in it. They see the Middle East as the key to remaking the world in their image.

[/ QUOTE ]


Do you or anyone really think that the Middle East, and the world of this nascent century, can work in (or even with) the Middle East's current paradigm? Well yeah, I guess the jihadists do, but they're insane.

If there's a portion of the world that needs to be remade, it's the Middle East. The past and present paradigms of the Middle East are a perfect prescription for oppression, corruption, war and disaster--and not just for the Middle East, but for much of the world as well (e.g., nuclear proliferation in the Middle East, for just one HUGE future disaster)

Remake faster, please.