Flop with OK & FD4 - call or raise?

Interested · #1 10-05-2005, 09:10 AM

Hi all,

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero ?

I have to consider that this hand confused me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I'd just sat at this 35/10 table and this was my 3rd hand. No reads.
At one side pot is a bit big and I can raise - on the other I can get many callers and to raise on later streets using position and I tend to call. What do you guys think?

I know there was an option to raise pre-flop but I like when there are 5-6 limpers. Thoughts?

bnorthro · #2 10-05-2005, 10:11 AM

I think I like calling here. This is a good multiway hand, and a raise by you might blow out the rest of the field. I think limping pf is fine because there's so many people in the pot already, your A may or may not be any good, therefore you're playing this for a flush.

If you had reads that these players would cold-call 2 on the flop, then I might like raising better.

#3 10-05-2005, 10:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi all,

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero ?

I have to consider that this hand confused me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I'd just sat at this 35/10 table and this was my 3rd hand. No reads.
At one side pot is a bit big and I can raise - on the other I can get many callers and to raise on later streets using position and I tend to call. What do you guys think?

I know there was an option to raise pre-flop but I like when there are 5-6 limpers. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
The EV between calling and raising preflop is close enough that it doesnt really matter what you do. On the flop you should just call as you dont want to eliminate anyone since you are on a drawing hand. If you were in a raised pot, and lets say the preflop raiser already checked and the cutoff bet, then you must raise to try to force all better aces to fold. In the actual hand, you are much better off calling the CO's bet and letting all the bottom/middle pairs/gutshots call, than raising to force out a better ace. The pot is now not large enough to worry about forcing out a better ace, and the better ace may not even be there anyways, given nobody raised preflop.

#4 10-05-2005, 10:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I like calling here. This is a good multiway hand, and a raise by you might blow out the rest of the field. I think limping pf is fine because there's so many people in the pot already, your A may or may not be any good, therefore you're playing this for a flush.

If you had reads that these players would cold-call 2 on the flop, then I might like raising better.

[/ QUOTE ]
This last sentence is a good point, I play at a casino where many people call the flop or a flop raise to see a turn card no matter what they have. Obviously in this situation raising is better than calling. But like the poster said calling is usually best since this juicy situation doesnt come up that often.

#5 10-05-2005, 11:41 AM

Raise the flop.
-you need to clean up your ace outs
-you will get a free card on the turn if you need it.

Don't worry about "losing customers". People are more that happy to call two cold on the flop to see another card. But if someone with AT decides to fold, then great - you have two more outs. If they call, that's fine too. They lose either way.

#6 10-05-2005, 11:44 AM

This is a juicy situation, yes. That doesn't mean you shouldn't exploit it by raising.

#7 10-05-2005, 11:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop.
-you need to clean up your ace outs
-you will get a free card on the turn if you need it.

Don't worry about "losing customers". People are more that happy to call two cold on the flop to see another card. But if someone with AT decides to fold, then great - you have two more outs. If they call, that's fine too. They lose either way.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is clearly an incentive to raise the flop, and an incentive to just call on the flop. I believe calling and letting in all the pair/gutshot draws will make more money for the hero in the long run. And like I said b4 if you are in a game where people are cold calling flop raises with relatively nothing than raising the flop is right. About forcing out AT or A9, These hands are not likely to call the flop so I wouldnt worry about these hands, the incentive to raise the flop is to force out middle/bottom pair with an ace kicker. If this were a raised pot, raising the flop would clearly be correct, but in a relatively small unraised pot, raising the flop and choking off our future action and potentially isolating ourselves against the best hand is not worth trying to free up our ace outs in my opinion

The Legend · #8 10-05-2005, 11:49 AM

I think the only problem with your line Marlowe (this is just my two cents, I don't even know if I'm right) is that the pot just isn't that big yet. Freeing up two outs just isn't worth it given the size of the pot right now. If there was a preflop raise, oh hells yea we'd raise this flop.

The free card also would be nice, but I think allowing the pot to grow here is much more valuable then the free card. Hell, with four callers on the turn we wouldn't even need the free card, we could bet for value.

Now, if the OP has a read that these guys will cold call with anything, raise it up.

#9 10-05-2005, 12:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the only problem with your line Marlowe (this is just my two cents, I don't even know if I'm right) is that the pot just isn't that big yet. Freeing up two outs just isn't worth it given the size of the pot right now. If there was a preflop raise, oh hells yea we'd raise this flop.

The free card also would be nice, but I think allowing the pot to grow here is much more valuable then the free card. Hell, with four callers on the turn we wouldn't even need the free card, we could bet for value.

Now, if the OP has a read that these guys will cold call with anything, raise it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the reason I like raising so much is that you have a much bigger edge with two cards to come that with just one to come. On the flop he's a 2:1 underdog to make his flush, compared to a 4:1 dog on the turn. Added to that, people love calling the smaller bets on the flop.

My point is that if you miss your flush you are in much worse shape on the turn. It's difficult to bet for value because you need four callers. You may decide you want the free card after all. However, if the table is so loose that four people will call a BB on the turn, you shouldn't have any trouble making lots of money on the flop.

alul · #10 10-05-2005, 02:50 PM

Well, I was kinda hesitant thinking of call/raise option. I probably just call. We do not have a made hand, the board has an overcard to our kicker and the ace outs may not be clean (if somebody has A5). So I don't think losing customers here is a good idea (and it will happen most of the time if you raise, probably only made hands will stay in the pot).