More Help ;P

[Eager2Learn]

Hello again all [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] First off, I wanna thank everyone who posted to my last message. With you guys help and a lot of practice, Ive managed to go from random chance to consistently beating most of the weak players I go up against. I am usually in the top 3-5 in 16 person tourneys and top 2 in smaller (5 person) tourneys. With that having been said, I still have some recurring difficulties that I would like to ask you guys advice on. I'll start with the more general stuff Ive noticed and then post my general playing 'technique' to see if you guys think I should change it.

First, I'm usually in the top several but I haven't won first at all....and the bigger the game the further away I am. I think this might be because Im beating the weak players but failing against stronger players. Any suggestions about how to play against stronger players that arent pros?

Also, especially in the smaller games, it takes FOREVER to beat out the weak player or two. The ones in my game seem to call anything but a big bet (they're loose card players but tight money wise when it comes to bets). So my question is how hard is too hard to push early game? I feel like if I make playing dependent on putting in bigger bets then theyll do it...but how do I keep making money while doing it. I dont wanna become weak by default since I'll be putting more money in the pot with lesser hands.

Also, I tend to 'follow the blinds' and so do most of the players I play with...so if the blinds are at 1-2 then they tend to bet the min a lot 2...maybe sometimes 4...except for on the end someone will bet big to take the pot? Is there a way to exploit this pattern?

Also, I find that I do better with smaller blinds and when the blinds get big I start losing money. Aside from the obvious point that bigger blinds take more money away, any suggestions on what to do/not to do when the blinds get large? (I'm gonna post the hands I play at certain stages a little further down)

Next, I notice the players who finish higher than me tend to push a lot of money in late...in fact a lot of times if everyone checks and theyre on the button or close, they'll put in a large stack of chips just to steal the blinds? Is this in itself a smart move or are they winning for other reasons?

Further, I have a hard time pushing in gigantic amounts of money on a bluff...and by bluff I mean a hand where you think you may have it but arent sure and are trying to push another player out. Any suggestions on when to bluff/with what hands/draws would be awesome [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Okay, so the hands I play (approx) at diff times in the game are as follows:

Early on, small blinds, 8 people at a table : any pair (smaller must hit on the flop...like below 7 or 8), Ace + (high card), suited connectors/unsuited connectors if to the flop and if they dont get me a darw I fold em, and 2 face cards (sometimes a face and a 10) KQ, KJ, etc.

In the middle of the game (middle blinds, several people) I tend to play all pair a bit harder, Ace + high or suited, suited and unsuited connectors if they hit on the flop as well as one card gap connectors, and any combo of cards 10 and above

At the end I tend to play all pair, any connecting/semi connecting cards, and any face+anything to the flop and see if I can hit it

What would you guys suggest. I would really appreciate any help [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] And thanks again for the previous help, Ive definitely gotten a lot better because of you guys!

PS Sorry about the long message...if you just wanna answer a part you know a lot about I'll understand. But I really do need some advice in all of these areas :P

Still Learning,
C

[JimHammer]

My advice would be to buy a book on poker. You'll get a lot of more detailed answers and explanations to your questions that way. Doyle Brunson's Super System would be a good place to start.

[Richard Tanner]

I don't know if those books will help. It depends on your competition. Unless the "good players" in your group are actually using good stragegies and not just getting luckier than you thus far, those books aren't going to help.
Super System, and many other books, are geared to help you beat tough competition, and aganist weaker foes they basically give you the same advice: "Make a hand, value bet"
That said, Harrington on Hold'em (which I've read) and Small Stakes Hold'em (which I have not read) would seem like two of the few books geared for home game players.

Cody

[smoore]

'grats on your success.

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First, I'm usually in the top several but I haven't won first at al

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keep plugging away, you'll get one.


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Any suggestions about how to play against stronger players that arent pros?


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Don't value bet as much, play much stronger starting hands, bluff more because a stronger player can lay down a moderate hand if you represent something massive. Checkraise them more than you would a fish, even if it's a check-raise bluff. A straight bluff doesn't work nearly as much as a HUGE checkraise bluff against a semi-tough opponent. Hopefully you've started to notice the "texture" of the hand you're in at the moment. You should play quite differently against two strong players and one weak player as you will against three weak players in any given hand.

I hate to break it to you, but you're probably still a weak player. Don't go thinking you're some shark right now. You have a lot left to learn. As long as you stay humble you will have great success. DO NOT GET COCKY.

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So my question is how hard is too hard to push early game?

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Don't gamble early. Push hard when you KNOW you have the best hand, be happy to get in small raises otherwise (or even call). Say you start with 1000 chips and have a chance to double up on a marginal choice early. You would have 2000 if you managed to double, but you'll be out if you're wrong or get just a LITTLE unlucky. Those 1000 chips are going to mean squat when the blinds are 250/500.

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lso, I tend to 'follow the blinds' and so do most of the players I play with...so if the blinds are at 1-2 then they tend to bet the min a lot 2...maybe sometimes 4...except for on the end someone will bet big to take the pot? Is there a way to exploit this pattern?


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Textbook crappy poker. Yes there's a great way to exploit it, RAISE. Just raise. Raise early, raise often. Don't minraise, that's horrible too. There's a simple formula, where I say 3x, you sometimes want to use 4x (very low blinds or very loose players):

Preflop: If you want to play the hand, either limp or bet 3xBB+1BB per limper. If someone has raised and you want to isolate them, at least TRIPLE thier raise. If you have the table covered then pushing is a great option. If someone has raised and you want action, call the raise. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER double the raise, give them a reason to fold.

Flop: Open for 2/3 to 3/4 the pot. Pick one of those ratios and stick with it. DO NOT bet better hands more and weaker hands less. People like me will pick up on that and tear you up. If someone else opens for a reasonable amount (like we would), do your pot odds calculations and see if you should call. If you should raise think about slowplaying (see recent thread). We shouldn't slowplay and we think we have the best hand? We raise THREE times thier bet, we never double. Doubling sucks.

Turn: Standard bet is 1/2 pot. Unless the stacks are really deep any raise is pretty much all-in if you've followed the above advice.

River: checkraise, checkfold or bet depending on situation. Your hand should not even go this far normally.


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Also, I find that I do better with smaller blinds and when the blinds get big I start losing money.

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Early game = survival
Mid game = chip gathering
Late game = kill shots

Read posts in MTT and STT forums here about "late game strategy" or whatever. Also, read Harrington on Hold'em from 2+2. If you get below 7-10 BBlinds you are in "push or fold mode". My threshold now is 7, when I was a n00b it was 10. Use that strategy, it works great. "I am under my threshold of 10 big blinds, if I want to play a hand I push all my money in preflop, otherwise I fold."

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Next, I notice the players who finish higher than me tend to push a lot of money in late...

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Slowplaying if the board is out, stealing if preflop. I'll do this all night long and then just flat push AA in the same spot, knowing someone has picked up on my stealing and might call with something as bad as JJ.

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Further, I have a hard time pushing in gigantic amounts of money on a bluff...

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That's the only way a bluff works usually... find the spots where you can honestly convince yourself "I have the flush." "I have the nut straight" and do it there. If they pick you off too often take the bluffing down a notch. The real trick to bluffing is to convince YOURSELF you have the hand you're representing.


Your hand selection is pretty arbitrary and more suited to a limit game, IMO. Read HoH and ToP. If you play QJo I want you in my NL tournaments [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] (God do I hate that hand).

[Eager2Learn]

Thanks very much for the tips [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] And BTW...don't worry Im fully aware Im still weak [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I have A LOT left to learn. When I said strong players that arent pros...I didnt mean to give the impression that I thought myself anywhere close. I just meant that the books I read seemed to be aimed at playing against the best...and these guys are better than me but arent pros.

I REALLY appreciate you taking the time to answer each part of my post...its very kind of you to be willing to be helpful...even to people that are beginners (Im sure I ask some dumb questions). Thanks again...and dont worry...losses keeping my ego in check at this point hehe

C

[Eager2Learn]

BTW could you explain what you mean about my hand selection a little more. I have SuperSystem...could its hand selection work in this situation or is it more sutied for play against different players? Could ya give me an example of preflop style u like?

C

[faytlnd]

About your handselection, I would say take suited connectors out of the picture early in the game, unless you are on the BB vs. no raise, and MAYBE comlete the SB vs. no raise. Early on I would say you should play something like AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,AQ,AJ,AT,KQs,TT, and possibly QJs. You could also play the lower pairs if you can limp vs. no raise and fold if you don't hit your set. Thats just an example, and you really should read a tournament book like Harrington on Hold Em or Tournament Poker for Advanced Players (the latter advocates a tighter style, which may help you out most) for more info.

And learning to bluff is definitely something you will ahve to learn. If its late in the game, and you flop four to the flush, a lot of times I would be pushing if I wasn't chip leader and there is a decent sized pot. You don't necessarily need to look to stone bluff, but its semi bluffs that are absolitely necessary. Until you can make a huge bet with the open ended straight draw, flush draw, or middle pair, then you are going to have a tough time making past the top 5/top 2 plateau. Be warned, these are situational things, and you are not going to want to do it if someone is showing a lot of strength against you. So its not only getting the guts to do it, but also having the wherewithall to know when to do it.

Finally, I might suggest buying a program like Turbo Holdem orPoker Academy. You can play tournament style, and play 10 tournaments (probably more) in the time it takes you to play one real tourney. The competition there will be at a similar, if not higher, level, and if you can regularly beat that, you should not have a problem with your home game. It will also allow you to analyze your play, and plug some of your holes, like starting hand selection.

[Fins]

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BTW could you explain what you mean about my hand selection a little more

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Nice post smoore!

Just want to add that as you consider hand selection also take in to account YOUR POSITION... think of your hand requirements as UTG, middle & late and adjust accordingly. Also, with regard to your drawing hands e.g. connectors & sooteds - play with some limitations on # of limpers to you & previous action... e.g. I'll only play hand x with no raises & 3 limpers min. etc...

Definitely read STT, a hidden gem of info. Be aware of the context the advice is given as alot of it I find is geared to Party's structure of low starting stack & quick blinds... not necessarily the case in many home game structures but great for late game play in either case.

- Fins

[smoore]

OK, hand selection... I would have replied in the first post but I had to consilidate my thoughts first. I HATE starting hand charts, they are completely worthless for someone like me. I think differently from a "pure math" mind that would value a chart. Abstraction is one of my strengths, therefore I can come up with some really amazing solutions but will "miss" the obvious ones. You also must understand that I am "loose" or "semi-loose" in NL with a deep stack compared to the blinds (I'm tight playing limit, it's the only way to win). With that said:

Sklansky wrote that there are three things that make a hold'em starting hand strong, HIGH CARDEDNESS, SUITEDNESS and CONNECTEDNESS, A hand must CONTAIN AT LEAST TWO of these to be "strong". This is my mantra.

I will limp in with 78s UTG if I'm fairly certain that I won't have to call a raise (I would throw it away if someone raised). I will raise JTs in midfield to try to steal the button. I will FOLD 77 in midfield if it's been raised and I don't think at least 4 others will be in the pot (3 others if at least one big stack is known to pay off when the set hits).

IF THE ONLY UNSUITED HAND YOU PLAY IS ACE KING YOU WON'T BE FAR WRONG.

Suited is HUGE... the difference between QJs and QJo is amazing. Throw it through pokerstove to find out just how amazing (at least I was baffled by the difference). QJo, KJo, QTo, KTo are TROUBLE hands. I look for excuses to throw them away preflop.... I'd rather play 84o like Gus Hansen (I'm not quite there yet but I'm trying). These sort of hands have a big chance of making SECOND BEST hand... second best hand is how you go broke in a tournament.

I hope this gives you a little insight into how a lunatic plays poker. You have to take this with a grain of salt though because I'm the guy that's constantly limping into cheap flops so that I can try to flop a monster and break someone. I'm usually raising if I'm the opener and I'll limp-reraise just for fun sometimes. Basically, I'm crazy. If you aren't comfortable getting allin with an 8hi flush or bottom two pair in the right situation you DO NOT want to play like me. n00bz could probably lose a lot of money trying to learn how to play like me, they would be better off sticking to "tight is right". I personally believe that you must think about starting hands on this level to become an expert player though. Maybe I'll be expert in 10 years [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

edit: oh yeah, I never talked much about position. POSITION, POSITION, POSITION. Did I mention position?

"In limit poker position is everything, in no limit it's the ONLY thing."

You bluff in first position and raise in last position. You checkraise in first position and snap off bluffs in last position. You play stronger hands up front and can loosen up some in back.

[Eager2Learn]

Wow...thanks for all the responses on hand selection guys. This really helps.

Couple Questions:
If QJo is trouble and QJs is better, does this mean you're looking for the flush always (since this is the difference between the hads)

Why would someone go in with 4,8? :P

By the rule on cardedeness, suitedness, and connectedness, what does this mean for diff positions/diff times in the gae in general terms. Also, how do pairs factor into that "mantra".

lastly, if Im not using a chart, what fo you guys think is the best "guideline" to go with?

Thanks again for all the support guys. I really appreciate it. U guys rock like gibraltar ;P

C