respecting river raises

[redbeard]

i believe that some very respected posters have stated that a river check raise is even stronger than a river raise. (i don't think i understand why that is) let's say for arguments sake that our opponent is unknown and the hand is heads up on the river. if we have had the initative the entire hand and he raises us on the river why is a check raise a greater indication of strength than a raise from in position? it seems to me that both raises would be an equal indication of strength one just means we are out of position (our opponent raises) and one means we are in postion (our opponent check raises). any thoughts are appreciated.

[mtdoak]

A few things to consider: #1. The size of the pot. #2. What you have. If you have top two/TPTK, I probably can't release it. #3. Is the river card a usual scare card? Did the 3rd of a suit just fall? Is there a 4 straight on the board? Even an A can be a scare card. If you have something like midpair against a blank river, you can probably safely let it go.

[redbeard]

perhaps my original post wasn't clear. i appologize if that is the case. my question is why is a check raise from your opponent on the river more of an indication of strength than if your opponent just plain raises you? to me they seem to be the same thing -- just in one instance you are in position (and get check raised) and in the other instance you are out of position (and get raised).

[berz]

If we disregard bluffing:
A bet OOP on the river often means "I've got something I'll call with, might as well bet it so you don't check behind those hands I beat that you would have called with."
A bet in position means "I've got something that beats you more then 50% of the times you call!"
Since the latter means a much stronger holding on average, a reraise should mean more strength too.

[cartman]

[ QUOTE ]
why is a check raise a greater indication of strength than a raise from in position?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Redbeard,

This is a very good question. I am a believer that a river checkraise indicates a stronger hand than a river raise in position, and I am surprised I am having such a difficult time coming up with the reason why. One important thing to consider, I think, is what we mean by "indicates a stronger hand".

What we may really mean is that it is less likely to be a bluff or a one pair hand because many of the times our opponent chooses to make a play at the pot with these he would have donk bet the river instead. So the fact that he chose to go for a checkraise is more likely to indicate that he really wanted to spring a trap on us and maybe he was even afraid that we would have folded if he had donk bet. In contrast, when our opponent is in position he didn't have the opportunity to donk bet and that leaves raising as the only one way to make a play at the pot either with a bluff or with a one pair hand that he is willing to raise for value.

Another point is that I think an in position player would have been more likely to put in a raise early in the hand with a draw where the out of position player would have been more likely to have played these hands passively. In other words, the out of position player doesn't have free card plays and free showdown raises at his disposal so he is more likely to play draws more passively than a player out of position.

I will think some more about this. There is probably some obvious explanation that I am missing. Maybe someone will come to our rescue in the mean time.

Cartman

[redbeard]

thanks cartman. those points you made were good enough to convince me that it is so. i just couldn't come up with any reasons myself as i stated. thanks to everyone for their help on this.

[flawless_victory]

a river bet in position represents more strength because the agressor is declining the opportunity to just check it and showdown. obviously raising an apparent value bet from a plyr in that situation represents strength.

also a person who checks the river is risking the action going checkcheck... some1 w/ no hand might not check, but rather would lead out of desperation...

dont forget that river checkraises ARE sometimes bluffs, especially in the middle limits, so i dont think you should ever release a good showdown hand automatically as the pot is usually pretty big by the river in SH games... frequent payoffs are correct albeit disheartening.