Two 30$/60$ hands I'd like your opinion about!

[DocHollyday]

Hi guys,

Has been a while since I posted the last time, but anyways, here comes the meat:

1st hand:

I have Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the BB. One UTG limper (bad player), one mp limper. SB completes, we take the flop 4 handed.

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, I bet, UTG calls, MP calls, SB mucks.

Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet, UTG raises, MP mucks. I think for a moment, because UTG's usually a calling station who seldom raises. Can't really figure out what he has, because he plays nearly every hand. However, he doesn't seem to sure about his move, and I'm not done with my hand yet. So I call.

River: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

What a shitty card. I check, he bets, I muck. He then shows me two aces. Anyone played it different? Comments?

2nd hand:

I'm in the SB and I get dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Same shitty player open raises in EP (he changed seats). Three players coldcall. I consider reraising, but I'm fairly certain, that I could only get the BB out, the EP raiser will from what I know so far from his play only call, and I wont get anyone out. So regarding my position, I deceide to just call and look how the flop comes. BB mucks.

Flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet right out, hoping that EP will raise and clear the field. He does as expected and we only keep the button, who is very fishy too. Back to me, I threebet and they both call.

Turn: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet, both call.

River: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet, EP mucks, Button calls, and my hand is good.

Comments? Anyone reraising preflop?

Thanks a lot!

[SpaceAce]

Hand #1 looks fine to me. In hand #2, I think you need to three-bet pre-flop. I don't see how worried you can be about playing KK out of position. Yes, you'll be building a bigger pot out of position but you are very likely getting WAY the best of it with each bet you get in pre-flop. I could be wrong but it sounds to me like you are worried about the extra $30 and not about getting the most out of your hand.

SpaceAce

[stanky]

hand 1:

The only thing you could of done different was to three bet the turn (you called because you thought you were good here, right, not because you wanted to draw to 4 outs, so why not raise if you think you have the best hand). If your not going to raise the turn I think you have to fold because your not getting the odds to draw(call) and you have to figure he either has a set or a better two pair. When a calling station raises the turn it usually means he has a very strong hand.

hand 2:

I would of three bet pre-flop and got at least four more small bets out of the EP and cold callers. I like the flop bet to clear the field but I would have just called the raise and check raised both of them on the turn. I think you lost several bets with the way you played this one.

-Pete

[Michael Davis]

"If your not going to raise the turn I think you have to fold because your not getting the odds to draw(call) and you have to figure he either has a set or a better two pair. When a calling station raises the turn it usually means he has a very strong hand."

Well, if we read our opponent for sometimes having a hand we want to raise against and sometimes having a hand we want to fold against, at what point does call become a viable option? It's difficult to imagine a heads-up situation where you're not on a dry bluff and where the only options are raise or fold.

-Michael

[SQUi5HiiFiSH]

2nd hand: why not check/call the river?

[steveyz]

Hand 1: I might check-raise the flop, but betting out is fine as well.

Hand 2: 3-bet everytime "and it's not even close". You aren't 3-betting here to get anyone to fold. When I have KK, I don't mind callers. You are losing way too much pf equity by not 3-betting here.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hand 1 is played fine.

Hand 2, 3 bet pre-flop. With so many callers you want to maximize value for this hand and not get fancy.

[slavic]

In hand 2 you are going to win this hand some ungodly percentage of the time. My records show 65% but thatmay be off since my sample size is well under however many billions of hands it needs to be to be anything worth looking at.

So by not raising preflop you are giving up about 1:20 of work. Also in a multiway pot it's near impossible to make that up. Yes in a headsup or 3 way pot you may very well make up a bet or half bet, but recapturing 2 or 3 bets is asking alot.