Stud/8 - Do you play it differently?

[grb137]

7 Card Stud High-Low ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds

4th Street - (4.90 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises

5th Street - (4.45 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises

6th Street - (8.45 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (10.45 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___[????]

Total pot: (12.45 BB)

[mscags]

I don't mind the raise on third, but I probably just call to entice more people into playing. Fourth: I don't mind the raise if you think you can get villian to fold on fifth if you catch another low card. If you don't think he will, or aren't quite sure than I would just call. Even though you "improved" you didn't really improve in the right way. Fifth is interesting. You've made two small pair, have a three straight and a three low. Unless this villian is a complete idiot he has to have something to keep betting into you when you have such a scary board. I think I would lean towards just calling fifth. The bet on sixth is standard. The river I cry and call. I don't see how you can win this, but the pot is so big, not to mention my curiosity would get the best of me and I would want to see what he had that he played that way. These hands suck, but sometimes they just don't work out the way you envisioned them.

[bigredlemon]

I wouldn't raise 3rd. 456 is behind QQ so raising is -EV. 456 does better multiway whereas QQ does better heads up, so you're only help him and hurting yourself by raising. Otherwise I'd agree with Mike. I don't think I'd call the river though. It looks like he went in with two pair and filled. I don't think you're going to win it even 10% of the time. It's very rare to see a Q door bet the river against a four card low straight that's showing so much strength with just one pair.

[Andy B]

Like the others, I flat-call on third unless I have reason to believe that people will call a raise. I would also only call on fourth and probably fifth. If the other guy doesn't have at least two pair, you should have his money soon enough anyway. I also think I'd take the free card on sixth. The other guy isn't folding, and you're losing. Since you chose the path of blind aggression, it appears you've made the pot too big to safely fold the river. Still, I can't imagine that two small pair are good here. Would he really bluff into your board? I'm not one to lay down mediocre hands for one bet in large pots, but it looks like this might be the time.

[bigredlemon]

I'd dont see a bet on 6th as trying to get the other guy to fold, although that is a nice bonus. I think Hero is betting 6th basically for the same reason one might raise to buy a free card. If we hit well on 7th, we can bet again. If we miss, we're almost certainly getting a cheap showdown. Against open 4568, I can't see bare Queens or even queens up value betting the river often if at all.

[Bill Murphy]

At first glance, my reply is: Fold, then pray this guy never leaves the game. His bet is just senseless. No way you fold a low or a better high. You might not even raise w/a small boat. Senseless, I say. I guess if had two low spades in the hole and made a good low, but the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is out and I don't see how he bets out on 5th w/that hand anyway.

I think I'd've played it exactly the same way, esp. the re-raise on 3rd. Here's the twodimes on the hand headup:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1130625

And here's if you smoothcall and "entice" a call from the bringin's crappy low:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1130630

Looks to me like the extra bets you'd win don't come close to making up for the extra you lose but I could be wrong. Offhand, it looks like you lose 1/4 of your lows & 1/3 of your scoops but maybe I'm nonunderstanding what the stats mean.

Plus, I always feel your hand is much easier to play headup, and you usually won't lose position unless your hand improves greatly. Now, 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is prolly just a call, but 654r is a FAR worse hand than that:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1130660

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1130661

[bigredlemon]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd've played it exactly the same way, esp. the re-raise on 3rd. Here's the twodimes on the hand headup:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1130625

And here's if you smoothcall and "entice" a call from the bringin's crappy low:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1130630

Looks to me like the extra bets you'd win don't come close to making up for the extra you lose but I could be wrong. Offhand, it looks like you lose 1/4 of your lows & 1/3 of your scoops but maybe I'm nonunderstanding what the stats mean.

[/ QUOTE ]I think you're missing one important point:

playing it heads up is -EV. Playing it 3way is +EV.

On fourth, if you brick heads up, you're so far behind you have to fold. If you hit well, it becomes slightly +EV.

If you brick multiway, you're behind and fold just as before. If you hit well and the donk hits well, you just landed youself in a very +EV situation. This is where the money is.

[mscags]

What BRL said [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Bill Murphy]

[ QUOTE ]
On fourth, if you brick heads up, you're so far behind you have to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1130744 I'm taking one off here.

[ QUOTE ]
If you brick multiway, you're behind and fold just as before. If you hit well and the donk hits well, you just landed youself in a very +EV situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1130748

Agreed, but let's see what happens when you hit well and donk hits better:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1130750

Still pretty good, but let's see about if donk #1 catches good as well(and thus will be pumping away):

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1130754 If donk #1 gets a K or J, its about .285, .43, .285. And note I've given donk #2 about the worst hand he could conceivably call one raise but not two.

Bottom line, I'm not convinced that the extra you make is more than the extra you lose along with the increased difficulty(misreads, etc), which is why I absolutely hate when "+/-EV" gets posted w/o stats backing it up.

[bigredlemon]

It sounds like you're looking at it from the "how can I win the most pots" angle rather than the "how can I win the most money" angle. At $10/20, the antes are so small that they are not worth fighting over except as a steal or for advertising purposes. You don't want to be risking 2BBs trying to win 0.15BBs if you split. Note that your "win" becomes a loss after the rake. 456 will scoop for high, but it'll only do it 30% of the time against QQ. You will get scoop 40% of the time. I do agree that pot equity doesn't tell the whole story since you're drawing while it's cheap, and making him pay the full bets when you're freerolling, but I don't think you'll make enough money doing it.

If we had to play 456 vs QQ all day, I'd think the only one who'd be up would be whoever's taking the rake.