A tournament poker spin on cash game bet sizing

[Apathy]

Hello mid-high

I have been playing primarily tournament poker for the past few months. Before that I played a mix of cash games and tournaments. Now, for the last few weeks I have decided to go back to cash games, mostly 5/10 and 10/20NL on various sites.

I think that mixing up the games you play and the structure they are played in (limit, pl, hi-lo, tournament etc.) is key to staying fresh and constantly improving, especially when playing for a living, hence my break from 90% tournament play.

I would like to share an observation of sorts that is something I took from tournament poker that I think applies well to big bet holdem cash games.

In tournaments there is this phenomenom where after a certain set of actions, or when somebody reaches a certain stack size you can tell that they are ready to give up. You could call this 'tilt' but in the traditional sense of the word that's not exactly what I am refering too. This also works the other way around. For example when somebody who rarely plays big buyin MTTs qualifies for one you know that they will be very unwilling to go broke early on, so you know that you value bet them small and take a lot of liberties with bluffing when you can threaten their stack. This is the kind of thing that great tournament players excel at, but is something you would not expect to carry over into cash games at all.

But I think it does.

I have time and time again seen people fold strong hands early on in their session and get widdled down gradually until eventually making a stand in a hopeless spot. Obviously this only applies to a certain type of player but I think it describes a large chunk of online and live recreational cash game players.

The lesson to take away from this post is that you shouldnt use your PT stats as a crutch, play less tables if you have to until you get this.

Paying attention to which stage of their session an opponent is at is amazingly important.

interesting

tag to see what others have to say

[ahnuld]

I find when I play, I generally lose at the start, but its not from getting nickel and dimed, its from making too many bluffs or not folding enough. However, this gets me paid off alot later when I swich hears and I make it all back and then some. Maybe the players you described are doing the same thing?

[italianstang]

How do you know if a specific tournament player has won his way in to a large buy-in tournament? Or is used to playing much smaller tournaments?

How do you tell how far in to a session someone is in a live game? Especially with rebuying and such?

I agree that those are excellent concepts to be watching out for but how do you put players in the right categories? Especially in tourneys where obviously there is a lot of random shuffling around of players and its tough to track who is who in the large fields.

[Yeti]

Standard.

Many times I'll win 2-3 pots in quick succession from someone, and can sense their growing frustration. Next hand I'll open, and announce to myself 'they will shove here'. In goes their 40bbs or so. It's pretty easy to forecast, yet it happens a lot.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
Standard.

Many times I'll win 2-3 pots in quick succession from someone, and can sense their growing frustration. Next hand I'll open, and announce to myself 'they will shove here'. In goes their 40bbs or so. It's pretty easy to forecast, yet it happens a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a perfect example of one type of thing I am talking about.

[riverboatking]

i disagree with this observation.
more often people are more willing to gamble it up early in there session as they still have a lot of time to "get it back".
the time to start bullying people, is when they are winning and thinking about leaving, that is when they will be hesitant to play a big pot as they are thinking of leaving soon and don't want to "give it back".

[whitelime]

I think your observation applies only to single tabling superfish.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your observation applies only to single tabling superfish.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can understand why my post may lead you to this conclusion but I think that stopping short at the idea of thinking about the mood people who are playing are in, will hurt you.

[whitelime]

[ QUOTE ]
but I think that stopping short at the idea of thinking about the mood people who are playing are in, will hurt you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree.

However, I challenge you to find one solid winning player who the following holds true for. Nevermind that it doesn't apply to most fish...

[ QUOTE ]
I have time and time again seen people fold strong hands early on in their session and get widdled down gradually until eventually making a stand in a hopeless spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be careful when broadly applying psychological concepts like this since the effects are vastly different in different players.