Outplay him or be patient?

iceman5 · #1 06-06-2005, 02:26 PM

Ive been playing NL for several years with alot of success. Ive been reading 2+2 for 6- months now and Ive picked up alot of good advice obviously, but there are several plays that I just dont think work very well.

I'll give you an example. You might play a hand where you dont think youre ahead but theres a flush draw on the board. You are planning to try to take control of the hand if the flsh card hits, by either a stop and go..or check raising when the flush card hits. In essence, you are trying to "outplay the guy" with a scare card.

In my experience, this just doesnt work except against the very best players which there arent very many of.

Heres an example:

$2/$4NL

Folded to me in the SB and I raise to $16 with 87 of clubs. The BB calls.

Pot is $32. The flop comes T82 with 2 hearts. I bet $30 and he minimum raises me. Normally I would fold right now. In my experience, I could fold to EVERY minimum raise and it is +EV. .....But I decide to call and if a heart hits the turn, I will pull the stop and go.

Pot is $150. The turn is a low heart. I lead out for $150. Unless he has the flush, he has to be afraid of me having AK, AQ, or AJ of hearts. He calls anyway.

The river is a non factor. (cant remember what it was). I check because he doesnt have enough left to bluff him. he checks behind and he has JJ with no heart.

Now , you might say "duh, you cant bluff a calling station". But in my experience there are way too many of these type players for this type of play to work. My normal game is to sit back and wait for when I really do have the flush and make this same play and I make a killing playing that way.

Another example of the opposite side of the coin.

Cutoff limps and I raise to $20 on the button with 88. The SB and cutoff call.
Pot is $65. The flop comes T82 rainbow. They check to me and I check it back.
Turn is a 6. Checked to me and I bet $40. The SB goes all in for $450. You know what he has? 76s. This looks like a play alot of 2+2ers might make (although he didnt need to raise THAT much). He has a pair and a gutshot and he thinks Im weak. I call and he is an 10-1 underdog.

I think sitting back being patient for hands like this 88 hand is much more profitable than trying to "outplay" people inline who always think youre bluffing and wont fold.

Thoughts?

gomberg · #2 06-06-2005, 02:44 PM

I agree - it's just so much more "fun" to do those other plays... And it makes it so that "good" players will pay you off on your good hands. Fortunately, there are many more bad than good players, so you must pick your spots (read opponents) when making plays, and thus you don't need to do it often.

solid · #3 06-06-2005, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Cutoff limps and I raise to $20 on the button with 88. The SB and cutoff call.
Pot is $65. The flop comes T82 rainbow. They check to me and I check it back.
Turn is a 6. Checked to me and I bet $40. The SB goes all in for $450. You know what he has? 76s. This looks like a play alot of 2+2ers might make

[/ QUOTE ]

It does?

iceman5 · #4 06-06-2005, 02:55 PM

Other than the raise being too much, yes. He thinks I have AK or some other hand I missed with

Leptyne · #5 06-06-2005, 03:01 PM

Your post, and Gomberg's reply have restored my sanity. I've had some fun with this and other "plays" and when it didn't work I always felt that somehow I mis-played the hand. Something I did gave me away. Now I realize I must be more careful (exercise better judgment) in selecting the opportunity to have "fun". I guess I'll have to go back to having patience and discipline. Not much fun in that, but a lot of profit.

soah · #6 06-06-2005, 03:05 PM

Scare cards aren't nearly as scary in battle of the blinds. No one should be folding an overpair there just because the board is three-flushed. The time to represent the flush is when lots of people saw the flop, and you're the only one that called the flop bet. Now the guy has to think "gee, with five people seeing the flop it's pretty likely someone flopped a flush draw, so I can't really call him down now." But of course, bad players may call you down anyway.

TheWorstPlayer · #7 06-06-2005, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He thinks I have AK or some other hand I missed with

[/ QUOTE ]
He thinks he's ahead, so he massively overbets? Can you link to posts here that suggest that? It sounds like you are just not playing in very tough games. Everyone here agrees that the way to beat easy competition is to value bet the heck out of them when you have the goods and not to bluff or semi-bluff very often if at all. It sounds to me like you are taking ideas that people discuss and are applying them to games where they don't apply. It doesn't mean the play is a bad one. It is just a bad one for the game you are playing in.

fsuplayer · #8 06-06-2005, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cutoff limps and I raise to $20 on the button with 88. The SB and cutoff call.
Pot is $65. The flop comes T82 rainbow. They check to me and I check it back.
Turn is a 6. Checked to me and I bet $40. The SB goes all in for $450. You know what he has? 76s. This looks like a play alot of 2+2ers might make

[/ QUOTE ]

It does?

[/ QUOTE ]

your flop check sucks bad, for soooo many reasons that you probably already know.

iceman5 · #9 06-06-2005, 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cutoff limps and I raise to $20 on the button with 88. The SB and cutoff call.
Pot is $65. The flop comes T82 rainbow. They check to me and I check it back.
Turn is a 6. Checked to me and I bet $40. The SB goes all in for $450. You know what he has? 76s. This looks like a play alot of 2+2ers might make

[/ QUOTE ]

It does?

[/ QUOTE ]

your flop check sucks bad, for soooo many reasons that you probably already know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, but thats OK.

iceman5 · #10 06-06-2005, 03:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He thinks I have AK or some other hand I missed with

[/ QUOTE ]
He thinks he's ahead, so he massively overbets? Can you link to posts here that suggest that? It sounds like you are just not playing in very tough games. Everyone here agrees that the way to beat easy competition is to value bet the heck out of them when you have the goods and not to bluff or semi-bluff very often if at all. It sounds to me like you are taking ideas that people discuss and are applying them to games where they don't apply. It doesn't mean the play is a bad one. It is just a bad one for the game you are playing in.

[/ QUOTE ]

He had to either think I had nothing or had a hand that I couldnt call an all in with. If I do call, he thinks he has outs for 2 pair, trips or the gutshot.