AK garbage in mid/high-stakes NL?

AceHiStation · #1 06-02-2005, 12:29 AM

Ok, so I've now got a decent 12.5k hands played at the 2/4NL buy-in level. I have been playing decently and have major room for improvement. My biggest concern is my AK stats. I am a fairly consistent winner but managed to be down $2300 with AKo(i'm up $980 with AKs). Anyways, I'm coming to the conclusion that the hand is essentially worthless at these limits because everyones too tight to play a hand that loses to TPTK. I've further looked into my specific hand histories only to realize that I have two losses of $300+ and seven losses of $200+. To be quite honest, its a little embarassing to post such stats. The biggest hand I've won with AKo has been a profit of a mere $146 and only have recorded four wins with AKo profiting $100+.

I'm going to post a few hand histories just to help the discussion along, but I guess I'm basically wondering whether its even worth playing strong preflop or postflop, how many players you want this hand against, how often you bet if you hit, how often you bet when you miss.

First hand was actually a month ago when I wasn't playing these tables too often. Villain at the time I didn't know, but now know he's a consistent winner.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

UTG+2 ($614.61)
MP1 ($912.5)
MP2 ($721.6)
MP3 ($370.3)
CO ($655.4)
Button ($466)
SB ($281)
BB ($427.7)
Hero ($898.9)
UTG+1 :#A500AF(villain)/ ($391.55)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
Hero raises to $12, UTG+1 :#A500AF(villain)/ calls $12, 7 folds, BB calls $8.

Flop: ($38) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $25, villain calls $25, BB calls $25.

Turn: ($113) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $100, villain calls $100, BB folds.

River: ($313) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero calls $761.90 (All-In), villain calls $254.55 (All-In).

Final Pot: $1329.45

Results in white below: 
Hero has As Kh (one pair, kings).
villain has Kc Kd (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: villain wins $822.10. Hero wins $507.35. 

Hand #2, this was actually last night in a huge tilt session and I'm embarassed as to how I played this one so please don't judge my level of play by the hand(especially river call). Villain I haven't seen before, but seems to be among the weaker players at the table.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB :#A500AF(villain)/ (10 handed) converter

Button ($311)
SB ($380)
BB :#A500AF(villain)/ ($367)
UTG ($206.6)
UTG+1 ($1185.3)
UTG+2 ($450)
Hero ($402)
MP2 ($197)
MP3 ($554.6)
CO ($490.3)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2. UTG+1 posts a blind of $6.
1 fold, UTG+1 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero raises to $12, 5 folds, BB :#A500AF(villain)/ calls $8, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: ($32) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
villain checks, Hero bets $15, villain raises to $40, Hero calls $25.

Turn: ($112) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
villain bets $20, Hero raises to $50, villain calls $30.

River: ($212) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
villain calls $265 (All-In), Hero calls $265.

Final Pot: $742

Results in white below: 
villain has Tc Th (straight, ace high).
Hero has Ks Ac (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: villain wins $742. 

Third and final hand. I don't really remember this one too much except for being real pissy when I lost it. This is one of the few times I've been in a good spot to profit with AK. Don't remember much about villain.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

MP3 ($334.28)
CO ($455.18)
Button ($375.5)
Hero ($249.3)
BB ($400)
UTG ($268.51)
UTG+1 ($449)
UTG+2 ($300)
MP1 ($1343.8)
MP2 :#A500AF(villain)/ ($251.8)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
4 folds, MP2 :#A500AF(villain)/ calls $4, MP3 calls $4, 2 folds, Hero (poster) raises to $18, 1 fold, MP2 :#A500AF(villain)/ calls $16, MP3 folds.

Flop: ($48) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, villain bets $30, Hero raises to $80, villain calls $50.

Turn: ($208) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero calls $149.30 (All-In), villain calls $149.30.

River: ($506.60) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $506.60

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ks Ac (one pair, kings).
villain has Qd Jc (two pair, queens and jacks).
Outcome: villain wins $506.60.

solid · #2 06-02-2005, 12:38 AM

In hand #1, what hands does the villian call the river push with that you beat? In Hand #2, why do you underbet the flop and then make a tiny raise on the turn? Similarly, if you're going to raise the flop in Hand #3 it needs to be a bigger raise.

AK is a tough hand to play at the higher limits, but it's definitely still profitable.

AceHiStation · #3 06-02-2005, 12:49 AM

I totally knew posting these how horribly they were all played. Wouldn't mind seeing some #s as to profit margin for some of the other players at 2/4NL or similar limits with AKo and/or AKs.

muzungu · #4 06-02-2005, 12:56 AM

Ace-

Let me fix a couple things for you (CHANGES IN CAPS).

[ QUOTE ]
My biggest concern is my AK stats.

[/ QUOTE ]
->

My biggest concern is my AK PLAY.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, I'm coming to the conclusion that the hand is essentially worthless at these limits because everyones too tight to play a hand that loses to TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]
->

Anyways, I'm coming to the conclusion that I CAN BEAT THESE NITS LIKE A DRUM because everyones too tight to play a hand that loses to TPTK.

One of the advantages a good player has over weaker players is their ability to adapt. If you are playing against a bunch of tighties, your optimal strategy is not going to be betting your TPTK hands aggressively on all streets. It's time for you to figure out what you should be doing instead.

-muz

Richie Rich · #5 06-02-2005, 01:11 AM

Welcome back. It's been a while.

Be sure to post in this forum more often. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

captZEEbo1 · #6 06-02-2005, 03:58 AM

To be honest, I feel the same way as you about AK being garbage. I usually fold AK to raises if I'm in sb or bb....either that or reraise them. I always laugh when I raise some pocket pair or KJ or AT type hand, have AK call, and I destack him once he hits top pair, and I have two pair or a set or something. Just playing AK oop is too hard for me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

If there's ever a real raise and a reraise, AK is turbo muck for me in any position.

Spladle Master · #7 06-02-2005, 04:52 AM

AK isn't garbage, you just play it badly.

Alexthegreat · #8 06-02-2005, 05:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
AK isn't garbage, you just play it badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. and good advice. I learned from you today.

dtbog · #9 06-02-2005, 08:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
because everyones too tight to play a hand that loses to TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact of the matter is that two of the hands you posted were one-card-straight-on-the-board hands... so those are certainly situations where I would not play a hand that loses to TPTK. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But I digress... my point here, without being as harsh as some of the other posters who visited this thread, is that you might want to focus on table selection and reading your opponents more. I don't generally stay at a table too long if the situation isn't profitable for me -- so if the table you're at doesn't suit a style that you feel comfortable playing, look for a better table. I've played more than a few 2/4 tables on stars where TPTK is the relative nuts on the flop.

~~~
Back to AK... how are your AQ stats? How do you play AQ differently from AK when you hit TPTK?

-dB

AceHiStation · #10 06-02-2005, 10:26 AM

Thanks for the feedback. I'm currently +263 with AQo and -162 with AQs. Most I've lost in a pot with these hands is about 175. I tell myself all the time to play smaller pots with these hands and do so with AQ, but seem to get myself into trouble when i'm not focusing with AK.