What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?

Hi all,

[Note: The first paragraph is just some personal background info so you can skip it if you are not interested:
I am currently at a crossroad in my life when I am going back to the third world country where I was born and starting to orginize my life there. As I am also finishing up my first year of playing poker for recreatinal pursposes, I have been thinking whether from a personal point of view it is worth it and whether it is socially responsible to invest any more of my time and effort into poker. (Don't get me wrong: I have profitted from the game and if I manage to repeat my achievements from this first year, I will be able to make a decent living at home...) Here are the thoughts that have been going through my head:]

What good is poker? Socially and in general, what purpose do we serve as poker players? We expend a lot of time, money, physical and emotional energy playing a negative sum game. Nothing of any value is created in the process. Would the world benefit if more resources (man-hours and so on...) are devoted to poker instead of something else? I would say no. In fact, it would be worse off...

The more I think about it, the more I get convinced that playing poker is a totally unproductive activity (this is from a general and not personal point of view). The game rewards a few players financially and leaves the majority worse off (that is a statistical fact). In the meantime it takes its emotional and health toll on almost everybody. Yeah, there might be recreational value to playing but if recreation would be my primary motivation, there are many other hobbies out there that do not threaten with high probability to hurt my bank account and my health. And even if I turn out to be ones of the very few "lucky"/"able" ones who actually profit from the game, that would also automatically make me one of those same few "lucky"/"able" ones who either directly or indirectly are the reason for the financial, emotional troubles of the rest "unlucky"/"unable" ones.

I mean, what exactly is poker? It is money exchanging hands. The websites, casinos, the rules of the game and so on are just vehicles that facilitate the exchange. A few people win from the exchange and their wins are less than what the majority loses. The difference is taken by the facilitating casino/website as a fee. Part of that fee is reinvested in the "infrastructure" of the poker world to provide better service, employ more people and so on... Is that the most efficient allocaton of that money? Probably not. I think it would be more beneficial if that low-skilled laborer in India or Aruba or wherever providing support for my exchange of money called poker was instead employed to produce something of value (a computer part or even some cheap item sold at Wal-Mart) . I don't think it would make much of a difference to the laborer and something productive/useful would come out of the whole process.

Anyway, just wanted to share the thoughts that have been going through my head lately. Those thoughts were a spontaneous attempt to look from a more general and unbiased perspective at the activity that I have been involved in for almost a year now.

I think a natural answer to some of the questions that I aksed in this post would be that poker is a voluntary activity and it is primarily intended to provide recreation and entertainment to people. The fact that it is voluntary, though, doesn't make poker socially beneficial. Which leads to my other question, individually each player and together as a poker commmunity are we socially responsible?

Don't get me wrong. I am not preaching against playing poker or gambling in general. I will probably continue to play regularly but I just want to see things the way they are. If I am involved in an unporoductive activity that is borderline socially irresponsible, I would like to at least know it.

Just trying to start a discussion that would hopefully make me feel a little better about playing and taking other people's money
Bate

[Reef]

winning poker players are like the hairy women in the circus. We entertain.. and do it in a pretty damn sexy way

As someone who is currently making a decent living laboring to make a lot more money for a company who makes all of their income off online ads, I have this to say: PPPPPPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

If you are a fireman, teacher or social worker, GOD BLESS YOU. Otherwise 97.5% of the jobs we do are just laboring to make some insanely rich people a little more rich. My goal is to be "off the grid" in a few months. I guarantee I won't be any less useful to society than I am now. If I make the money I want and am able to travel to all the places I want with all the free time I hope to have, then at least it'll benefit some third-world economies.

That's my philosophy anyway.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

We are productive members of society. We take money out of idiots hands before they can go see movies like Armageddon, or buy the latest 50 Cent CD and instead we can funnel the money into various anti government militias to expose the truth.

That the United States is just a front for the vast Illuminatic/Beta Reticuli conspiracy that threatens to envelop the entire world.

But seriously, poker provides entertainment for people, we provide them a diversion and make sure they are especially productive at their place of business so they don't get fired and lose their source of money that allows them to play poker.

I live in a Northern Ontario steel town, a town who's primary employer for most of it's existance was the steel mill. For years it was the status quo that people had basically 2 choices, go to college and move away, or go work in the mill. If choosing the latter one could almost be assured a decent living en route to the white picket fenced house and 2.2 children etc etc.

As economic conditions changed in the market place, the layoffs began. Not only were there no longer jobs for the recently graduated high school kids, but those who were already foot-holed in the mill soon found themselves on the unemployment line, in a city with now one of the highest unemployment rates in Canada, facing the loss of their house, tensions in their familes, and many of them turning to the bottle for comfort, thus leading to the breakdown of family. I am sure this is a similar scenario with many industries, and in many locations. Chit happens, eh.

Some years back after some deregulation of gaming laws, a casino opened up in our community,. and now serves as one of our better employers. It has saved many ex-steel workers through available jobs, their homes, their familes etc etc. I believe for us, the social impact of gambling has largely been a positive.

As far as being a full time poker player/gambler and the social implication of this versus some other job, I feel I am doing my part in keeping my neighbor in a job every time I buy into a table there. As far as the health aspect is concerned, I won't deny that I might be about 20 lbs. lighter and in better shape if my daily work schedule didn't consist of 6-8 hrs of sitting my azz in front of a PC multi-tablin'. I also know though, that I could easily have been one of the ones who spent 30 years working in a mill to drop over dead with a heart attack due to the stress and worry the job carried, or the barrage of various lung diseases brought on by working in fairly toxic circumstances. I can live with the extra 20 lbs.

I don't have any shame in doing what I do, nor do I feel I am not doing my part for society, or our economy.

[Nightwish]

You have a fairly simplistic notion of what constitutes "value" to society. Tell me, should we herd off the musicians and force them work in a coal mine or do something else more "productive" with their time? How about the guys working the financial markets? Besides stocks, there are now all sorts of esoteric financial instruments, like options on options and so on. Should we ban those? Send the guys running the hedge funds into the coal mine too?

There's more to "value" than just producing things you can physically touch. There's value in entertainment, value in creating capital, and yes, value in playing poker. That is, unless you're a hermit who doesn't spend any of the money he earns (no house, no food, no clothing, no taxes, no investments, nothing).

Wow, I love this thread.

I totally agree with the original poster....

IMHO Poker has very little value to "society". Not "none", but very little. It is all about the individual. It is among the most unsocial activities out there. Of course you can get entertained, have a bit of a laugh while playing, etc. But YOU play to WIN. You play to gain from the loss of others. Where is the by-product??? What is produced???

It takes man back to his natural instinct- in its rawest form- survival of the fittest- this isn't "social" behaviour.

Society has taught us through conditioning to play nicely and be sociable. Deep down, most people want as much as they can get- and in the easiest way possible.

It's what you do with that gain that's important. How "sociable" are you going to be with it? Help charitys. travel the world, etc, etc.

As for me, I am just setting out on my poker "career". I can;t even beat the micro's yet. But I have a vision of beating the small stakes in a year or so from now. This would add extra money to my income to do more "sociable" things with my family.

It seems to me that Poker is (potentially) a very "dangerous" activity. To beat the game you have adopt the most selfish behavioural patterns. If you do this and you are winning- a vortex starts spinning- you want more. Your values may change. You may be consumed. Achieving a healthy balance must be (I imagine) the hardest lesson of all.

Just my thoughts.

Ian

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
You have a fairly simplistic notion of what constitutes "value" to society. Tell me, should we herd off the musicians and force them work in a coal mine or do something else more "productive" with their time? How about the guys working the financial markets? Besides stocks, there are now all sorts of esoteric financial instruments, like options on options and so on. Should we ban those? Send the guys running the hedge funds into the coal mine too?

There's more to "value" than just producing things you can physically touch. There's value in entertainment, value in creating capital, and yes, value in playing poker. That is, unless you're a hermit who doesn't spend any of the money he earns (no house, no food, no clothing, no taxes, no investments, nothing).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, but have a couple of further points to add. The OP mentions that he is going back to live in a third world country. I've lived in a third world country. I understand what goes on in that environment. By playing poker online you are going to be bringing hard cash directly into a place that needs it the most. You can't tell me that this isn't a benefit. Figure out what you want to do with it but I'm sure you can put a small percentage of it to good use.

Another thing. Everyone needs to have a vice. No matter how straight they seemingly are. Some people admit they have vices, other people lie to themselves. But we all have at least one. Being a model train collector for example is a vice. How much money do these guys spend? What use is it to the social good? What about people who play golf for chrissake? The list is endless.
My vice makes me money. And even if it didn't, compared to what a lot of other people spend on vices, it wouldn't be much.

[w_alloy]

Some of you are just plain wrong.

We provide no entertainment to others. It is usually more fun for losing players to play with other losing players.

The money we pay in rake is a business expense. We are talking about the money we take home. The amount we pay in rake is not significantly helpfull to society relative to what would have happened to the money had we not been involved.

Our jobs themselves (as online or cash game casino pro poker players) are of nearly no utility to society. This is an inescapable and undisputable fact.

If you are an extremely moral person you can compensate for this by being involved in a lot of charities.

[ianlippert]

If the majority of players are gaining nothing from playing poker, why do they keep coming back? Poker provides the same thing any form of entertainment does. The same could be said about movies/music/television. These mediums take lots of money from the consumer for what? A couple of hours of escapism.

The money aspect of poker is not just a degenerate game of gambling. People want to test their skills for financial reward. There are many examples of this, Magic the gatrhering, backgammon, Pool, etc. The bigger the stakes the better the players.

Outside of people with gambling problems, I would have no problems taking peoples money. With todays online micro stakes, there should be no one spending more than they can afford to lose. So I really dont see what the problem is.

It would be better for society for you to play poker part time and do some volunteer work with all the free time you have, than spend 40-50 hours a week working for some greedy corporation.