Can someone point me to another dimension?

[Lestat]

This post will give away my lack of education, but here goes..

As I understand it; There is up, down, left, right, back, and forth to make up our 3 spacial dimensions. And of course, there is also time. Do we know of any other dimensions?

So why is it that I cannot conceive of any other dimension? I mean, I can't even get close! Could a guy who lives on a 2 dimensional piece of paper conceive of the 3rd dimension depth? I honestly don't know.

Has any other dimension been proved? I know string theory relies heavily on multiple dimensions, but as I understand things this is the exact problem with string theory. It is completely untestable and likely never will be.

So my question is, why is believing in dimensions any different from believing in God or religion? I'm SURE this is a dumb question, but I don't know the answer. The string theorists will say that many things point to the existence of these unseen, unprovable dimensions. But the theist will say the same things about religion and God.

Can anyone explain this to me?

[boysetsfire]

Flatland by Edwin A. Abbott is a good book that tries to describe exactly what it would be like for a 2d creature to be visited by a 3d creature and his understand of the third dimension. http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/flatland/ is an online version of the book. Then there is Sphereland which was written afterwards I cant remember exactly what that one was about but im pretty sure its the same sphere visting flatland with more information.

-Marc

"Hyperspace" by Kaku, gives great examples of how a 4th spatial dimension might be invisioned through examples of specific paintings of Salvador Dali and Picasso.

[RJT]

I have got to get some sleep.

This "stuff" should be interesting. Glad you brought it up, Stat.

[purnell]

We rely on our senses, and we can only perceive the three spatial dimentions plus the linear passage of time.

If you use linear algebra to solve "real-world" problems, then all you have to do is add another equation/unknown, and suddenly you're working with an extra dimention. We just have a real hard time visualizing it because our brains are wired for this world.

You cant conceive of a fourth spatial dimension as your mind has developed to conceive of only the three that we live in. Although there is a widely held view that "time is the fourth dimension" (no doubt arising from the popular perception of general relativity) it is fundamentally different from the three spatial dimensions.

The most plausible explanation offered by string theorists (I believe) is that the extra dimensions required to keep their theories consistent with reality exist but on scales so small that they are essentially unobservable by us. The difference between a theist's claim for god's existence and a string theorist's claim for the existence of these dimensions is essentially that the string theorist would believe that such observations are possible in principle. A theist would claim that god's existence must be accepted as a matter of faith.

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
So why is it that I cannot conceive of any other dimension? I mean, I can't even get close!

[/ QUOTE ]

Try to think in terms of coordinate geometry.
You can uniquely define a point in one-dimensional space by giving one number.
You can uniquely define a point in two-dimensional space by giving two numbers. Latitude and longitude for example.
You can uniquely define a point in three-dimensional space by giving three numbers. Latitude, longitude and height.
You can uniquely define a point in four-dimensional space by giving four numbers. Latitude, longitude. height and time.
You can uniquely define a point in five-dimensional space by giving five numbers.
You can uniquely define a point in 769-dimensional space by giving 769 numbers.
etc…

Do a basic maths course.

[ QUOTE ]
Has any other dimension been proved?

[/ QUOTE ]

This question completely misses the point.

The question is not, “Does n-dimensional space exist” for some value of n, but is it useful to model some real world phenomenon using n-dimensional space.

If the answer is yes (which it is), this does not say that the universe is n-dimensional, just that it is useful to model some part of the universe using n-dimensional mathematics.

Or to put it another way, if some current models of the universe require that you have more than four numbers to specify a point of space time then you have in effect more than four dimensions, how you visualise this is a purely personal matter.

It might of course be true that the universe actually is n-dimensional (for some specified n), but of course we will never be able to know that for certain.

[ QUOTE ]
So my question is, why is believing in dimensions any different from believing in God or religion?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is different because, with scientific models, you are not making a statement about the real universe, just that it is useful to think about the universe in a certain way to achieve certain ends. Religions typically make firm statements about the universe.

Taking the view that believing in a religion helps you make decisions about your life, and that is why you are religious is fine. The religion can then be judged on how well it attains these ends.

It’s when you start saying that the specifics a particular religion are not a (rather dodgy looking) model, but a firm statement about how the universe really is that the problem occurs.

[Siegmund]

I second the recommendation of Edwin Abbott's Flatland, a Romance of Many Dimensions.

I was introduced to Flatland via Rudy Rucker's The Fourth Dimension: a Guided Tour of the Higher Universes, which I also recommend. You are not the first to notice some similarities between the supernatural and the higher-dimensional; a healthy list of philosophers have suggested that a four-dimensional being playing in our 3-space would look like an angel or a ghost to us.

Whether that fourth spatial dimension is "really there" or not is sort of an un-question... even if it is, we can't get to it or point at it. What we can prove is that our own space is curved rather than flat, i.e., that we are living on a 3-dimensional surface twisting around in some higher-dimensional space. Much the same as how one can prove the earth's surface is wrapped around a sphere rather than being a flat sheet without actually going into space or drilling through the center of the earth to prove it. (The details aren't as simple.. but yes, it's pretty much an established fact that space has positive curvature, not a matter of religious debate.)

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
Try to think in terms of coordinate geometry.
You can uniquely define a point in one-dimensional space by giving one number.
You can uniquely define a point in two-dimensional space by giving two numbers. Latitude and longitude for example.
You can uniquely define a point in three-dimensional space by giving three numbers. Latitude, longitude and height.
You can uniquely define a point in four-dimensional space by giving four numbers. Latitude, longitude. height and time.
You can uniquely define a point in five-dimensional space by giving five numbers.
You can uniquely define a point in 769-dimensional space by giving 769 numbers.
etc…

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure this helps with his conception problem.

Another second for Flatland.

If your world was confined to a line where there was only forward and back, could you conceive of an up, down, left, or right? (Don't cheat and use your 3-D mindset, really imagine you are in a 1-D world.) So if you can't think of 2-D/3-D in a 1-D world, does that mean 2-D and 3-D universes are impossible? Obviously not. Same thing for beyond 3-D spatially. There is no way you could "feel" it or have a mental grasp of it.

You could imagine that color represents the 4-D spatial dimension. Something can be specified spatially in 3 dimensions, and its value in the 4th dimension is represented by assigning a color. This would allow you to "see" a 4-D surface as a topography in 3-D space. Just like a 2-D plot with color scale (or contour lines) can help you "see" a 3-D image.