Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint

[jcaesar]

Hi guys, I'm posting this because I was unsatisfied with the results of other posts on this subject in the forum. Feel free to skip the story and scroll down to the question.

My Story
I've been playing poker for about five years or so. I discovered the game in early college, and subsequently studied books, my results, theory, and strategy until I became a competent player. After I graduated, I decided to turn pro, moved back home to save on expenses, and did well for myself for about eight months, playing in casinos, cardrooms, home games, and online.

Also post-graduation, I became more involved in church and rediscovered my faith in God. Previously, I could be categorized as a lukewarm Christian at best. While I could definitively say that I had experienced the presence of God in my life, in my younger years I chose to turn a blind eye to His existence. Basically, I enjoyed my life more not following Christian teachings, rather than vice versa. However, maturity and involvement played a role in bringing me back to the church, and as a result I began to learn more and more about what it is that Jesus asks us to do as his followers.

Recently, my poker ability has been in decline, and my results have suffered as well. For one thing, I no longer had a "killer instinct" at the tables. I went away from reading players and targetting those that exhibited characteristics of weak play to just playing my cards.

As I encountered increasing disapprovement from my family (not because of the results, but because of the perceived "evil" from a conservative Christian family in gambling), I began to seriously think about Christianity and poker, and decided not to play another hand until I could reconcile my faith with my career. I know this can be done, because there are plenty of wildly successful poker players that profess to be Christian (Negreanu, Brunson, etc.)

My Question
Is targetting weak players against Christian principles?

The main moral problem I have with poker that I can't reconcile with the Christian faith is the game's intrinsic aspect of targetting weak players to maximize your winnings. A great situation for a poker player is when he is sitting with the biggest fish, the worst player, the least schooled sucker in the world and he knows it's just a matter of time before he completely cleanes the sucker out. Mike Caro (and common sense) consistently recommends the approach of playing the games you can win, rather than the games with the toughest competition.

In Col 3:4, Paul says "And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him."

Somehow I can't reconcile the killer attitude that I have when sitting down next to a loose, passive player who I know is itching to give away his money with that ideal. "In the name of Jesus, I take this pot from you because you play too loose." I don't see this attitude being something that Christ would approve of.

I'm open to all ideas and thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

[RJT]

Being Christian and a competitive poker player are not mutually exclusive in my opinion. (Theoretically, I suppose any form of competition is not Christian.) If your poker games is suffering because you have “guilt” about targeting (only) the weakest of the weak, I suggest you work on your game instead of your Christianity.

I think Jesus is pretty clear on this one: "whatever you do unto the least of my brothers, you do unto me". So if you bust a fish, you've busted Jesus.

[NotReady]

Below are three threads concerning this issue:

#1 # 2
#3

This is a very, very serious issue for you. I struggled with something similar for many years (not poker) and finally left. I could get no cogent advice from other Christians and suffered for a very long time.

From what you say it sounds like you should quit. There are many verses in Scripture about conscience, and not violating it. Something may be perfectly legitimate for one but not for another because of this issue.

I strongly urge you to take a long vacation, at least. Not because of what your church and family tell you, though that is certainly not irrelevant and should be considered, but because you obviously have a conscience problem.

I can't stress too much how important this is for your peace of mind and future Christian growth. Money is one of the strongest temptations we face and it will be very easy for you to rationalize this. I can tell you that all the money in the world is worthless compared to your conscience, peace of mind and of course your relationship with God.

Be very honest with yourself. What do you think Scripture says on this issue - not poker necessarily, but pursuing a course of action about which you have doubts.

[Puss In Boots]

I haven't read anything but the topic, but I can assure you with absolute certainty that there are no moral issues and Christianity is 100% wrong. Please note that this is NOT an opinion.

[jcaesar]

[ QUOTE ]
Being Christian and a competitive poker player are not mutually exclusive in my opinion. (Theoretically, I suppose any form of competition is not Christian.) If your poker games is suffering because you have “guilt” about targeting (only) the weakest of the weak, I suggest you work on your game instead of your Christianity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the quick response. I was trying to bring up in my post a specific Christian principle that condemned a specific poker maxim, thereby speaking to their mutual exclusivity.

If I want to follow Jesus, and Jesus teaches that taking from the weak is wrong, and in poker I take from the weak, then it follows that poker is wrong to me.

What I seek to do is reconcile the two areas of my life, rather than twist Christianity into fitting my lifestyle. If anything's going to change, it's the way I view what I'm doing in poker, not my faith.

Thanks again for the response, and am interested in hearing what else you have to say.

[jcaesar]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Jesus is pretty clear on this one: "whatever you do unto the least of my brothers, you do unto me". So if you bust a fish, you've busted Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like a lot of times the "weaker brethren" blanket classification is hazy in poker. A fish in 100/200 may be a shark in 5/10. I've been the "least of my brothers" in many of the games that I've played in, but by no means regard myself a fish.

I think what I'm trying to change is more of my approach towards the game(i.e. making the right decision rather than looking at the result, which is what good poker is supposed to stem from).

I get the feeling I'm missing your point. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[jcaesar]

[ QUOTE ]
Below are three threads concerning this issue:

#1 # 2
#3

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for these references, however, I've read the first two already and felt unsatisfied with regards to their discussion about my question specifically, but I'll take some time to peruse the third one.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a very, very serious issue for you. I struggled with something similar for many years (not poker) and finally left. I could get no cogent advice from other Christians and suffered for a very long time.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] This is why I've decided not to play any more poker until/unless I resolve the issue. If you wouldn't mind sharing your personal experience with me (Perhaps through a PM if you don't feel comfortable sharing on the forum?), I think it might help me gain some greater perspective on the problem I'm facing right now.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[jcaesar]

Wow, thanks for that. I guess everything's okay now.

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
So if you bust a fish, you've busted Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty funny. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I would ask if you're applying the same rigor to your other endeavors, e.g., your job. Like, do you work at a for-profit corporation?