Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint

All gambling includes a financial risk, but all financial risks are not considered "gambling" (in the sense that we are talking about in this thread).

Poker is zero-sum gambling game. You only win at someone else's expense. That's why many Christian denominations consider it to be wrong. Investing in stocks, opening a business, etc, are all financial risks, but it's not zero-sum. Wealth is being created, not merely transferred.

[malorum]

Radix malorum est cupiditas!!!!

[Mempho]

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All gambling includes a financial risk, but all financial risks are not considered "gambling" (in the sense that we are talking about in this thread).

Poker is zero-sum gambling game. You only win at someone else's expense. That's why many Christian denominations consider it to be wrong. Investing in stocks, opening a business, etc, are all financial risks, but it's not zero-sum. Wealth is being created, not merely transferred.

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I can understand the basic gist of your post. However, many times "wealth creation" is really a transfer of wealth. In capitalism, people often do things at the expense of others. In fact, many businesses make most of their money at the expense of others. What if your job is to sell things to people that can't afford what you are selling? Is this bad? Does it have a moral cost? Poker provides nothing tangible, but neither does a concert. Entertainment is intangible and that is what poker is to most people. For some people, it's an addiction. I think you have to think about what is truly right when you get into the grey areas of life (i.e., selling someone something that will put them into financial slavery/ruin or playing poker with people who can't afford to lose the money and have no control). I believe poker is an "interesting" game that is not just comprised of the "gambling" component. In other words, I think it is interesting because it is a game of strategies, skill, and luck. Contrast this to lottery, slot machines, or craps. For most people, a poker game is an enjoyable experience apart from the money. I enjoyed the game when I originally played it for no money at all. Yes, it's a gambling game, but I think the entertainment factor provided by poker is high. I enjoy winning because I am competitive. The money is nice only because it allows me to play at a higher competitive level.

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Poker provides nothing tangible, but neither does a concert. Entertainment is intangible and that is what poker is to most people. For some people, it's an addiction.

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I'm not disagreeing with you. I think it's considered entertainment also. However... the majority of Christian denominations will disagree with us. And, they have a point: when you pay to see a movie/concert, it's possible for everyone to win -- you, and everyone else, have a great time, like the movie/concert, and the movie/concert gets paid for a job well done. The better the performers/movie, the more money they can make, and the more enjoyment/entertainment they provide to the public paying to see the movie/concert. Poker, and other zero-sum gambling games, are not like that. The people that just play for entertainment, and have a good time whether they win or lose, are in a win-win situation. But, I'd guess that most people (that play a lot) play to win. If they don't win, it's not nearly as fun for them. The money that is made, then, is at someone else's expense -- most of the time.

Again, I don't have a problem with it, but I don't deceive myself into thinking what I'm doing is perfectly in line with Christian doctrine, either.

[hmkpoker]

From an economic standpoint, I find professional poker playing to be unethical.

You are taking money from people without providing a product or service in return.

ok, ok...I know that yes, the losing players are stupid and it's their fault for losing their money, and it's legal, and so on and so forth. But regardless, your presence at the table hurts their EV, and thus what happens is you spend time taking money from them (which they could go on to spend somewhere else), while you could be providing a service in exchange for a similar amount of money.

[Mempho]

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Again, I don't have a problem with it, but I don't deceive myself into thinking what I'm doing is perfectly in line with Christian doctrine, either.

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Well, it's certainly not in line with certain denominations' doctrines. I think the productivity argument could be the most valid argument of all, however. I think that productivity is extremely dependant upon who is using the money. If one uses the money for productive puposes, then an argument could be made that that particular person is making "idle money" productive again. That might include charity, building a business, etc. I think that using money and resources wisely is important. If all you dream about is expensive cars, clothes, and not working...well, that may be a problem. Some people on this site have the desire to be productive...some do not...I've heard people talk about everything from buying a chain of Subways to sitting on their ass. I don't think anyone is "made" to be happy sitting on their ass for very long. For some of us, it is a means to another dream, however.

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Again, I don't have a problem with it, but I don't deceive myself into thinking what I'm doing is perfectly in line with Christian doctrine, either.

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Well, it's certainly not in line with certain denominations' doctrines.

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All of them that I know of. I'm sure some more liberal denominations think it's OK.

This reminds me of when my Christian friend made the argument that masturbation wasn't a sin if he was thinking about his future wife when he did it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Mempho]

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Again, I don't have a problem with it, but I don't deceive myself into thinking what I'm doing is perfectly in line with Christian doctrine, either.

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Well, it's certainly not in line with certain denominations' doctrines.

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All of them that I know of. I'm sure some more liberal denominations think it's OK.

This reminds me of when my Christian friend made the argument that masturbation wasn't a sin if he was thinking about his future wife when he did it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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LOL...terrible. Yeh, I think a lot of demonitations split hairs over "rules." Its just not a good idea to attack certain sins and leave other ones alone. Sexual sins, drug abuse, alcoholism, crime, and abortion are attacked fairly liberally by the Southern Baptist Convention (who also attacks gambling to a somewhat lesser degree). Many things are conveniently left out more than not. These things include gluttony, greed, "not loving thy neighbor," etc. People have to be careful...even Pat Robertson concedes that there is not a biblical basis for saying that gambling is a sin. He stated in one of his books that he would be very uncomfortable with saying that gamblers are wrong. Could I be justifying to myself that it is right? Sure, it's possible. I'll come back on 2+2 and post on this board (in a non-attacking way) if I ever reach the conclusion that it is wrong.

In a way, however, I feel like poker players are fairly honest (disregarding the cheaters). Sure, I meet some assholes, slowrollers, and general scum that I meet in every other facet of life. In poker, however, I make no bones about being there to win your money.

This could easily be contrasted with the salesman who urges you to buy it because its the right thing for you. I'm not attacking salespeople, I'm just saying that the world is out to make a buck and that's the society that we live in...right or wrong.

Pat Robertson has stated that he opposes gambling. Here's one article w/ a quote I found:

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13774.htm

... Funny, though... he repented and sold his race horse:

http://www.patrobertson.com/PressReleases/HorseSale.asp

[Mempho]

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Pat Robertson has stated that he opposes gambling. Here's one article w/ a quote I found:

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13774.htm

... Funny, though... he repented and sold his race horse:

http://www.patrobertson.com/PressReleases/HorseSale.asp

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Yeh, he caught a lot of flack for that horse. I was just waiting for him to say something about televised poker just to see if Doyle or Negreanu would bring up the racehorse when interviewed. Back to point, Pat Robertson opposes gambling but someone asked him if gambling was a sin and he said he didn't have the biblical basis to state outright that it was a sin.