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  #1  
Old 12-28-2005, 12:05 AM
BradyC BradyC is offline
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Default Logic in an atheistic worldview

I have been trying to get into the mindset of atheism and have an honest question. I hear many atheists claim that the laws of logic are self-evident and axiomatic and cannot be proven. I believe this to be true. However, I believe they are a reflection of God's nature and are eternal. How does the atheist account for the acceptance and validity of the laws of logic? Is it blind faith? Thanks in advance.

His Grace is Sufficient
Brady
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  #2  
Old 12-28-2005, 12:29 AM
Matt R. Matt R. is offline
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

Hi,
I'm not an atheist, but axioms are so basic and obvious that they are self-evident. Thus, they require no proof. As for where an atheist believes these axioms come from... they simply exist due to the necessity that our reality is logical. i.e. our universe has always existed or came into existence by random occurence, and since our universe is based on logic, basic axioms must hold.

I'm not sure this is the best explanation, but basically I am saying that because our universe is logical by its very nature, then the basic axioms which follow naturally from logic have "existed" since the inception of the universe.
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Old 12-28-2005, 12:56 AM
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

[ QUOTE ]
How does the atheist account for the acceptance and validity of the laws of logic?

[/ QUOTE ]
The same way I'm sure the sun isn't going to turn into a dragon's ass and shoot fire at me.

Self organising systems such as the brain necessarily develop certain internal rules that make them functional. We observe events and generalise them. We see effects and postulate causes. We draw links between related items. This is a basic component of our brain architecture - as well as that of animals. Logic is just a refinement of this process.
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Old 12-28-2005, 01:39 AM
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

[ QUOTE ]
Self organising systems such as the brain necessarily develop certain internal rules that make them functional. We observe events and generalise them. We see effects and postulate causes. We draw links between related items. This is a basic component of our brain architecture - as well as that of animals. Logic is just a refinement of this process.


[/ QUOTE ]

How about a non-self organizing system like a computer, can it develop certain internal rules? I can look at a line and think about a point outside that line and invision ( at least in Euclidean geometry ) a single parallel. From there, I can derive all sorts of fun formulas. Will a computer ever be able to determine on its own, without specific programming, self-evident truths?
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  #5  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:12 AM
Bork Bork is offline
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

[ QUOTE ]
I have been trying to get into the mindset of atheism and have an honest question. I hear many atheists claim that the laws of logic are self-evident and axiomatic and cannot be proven. I believe this to be true. However, I believe they are a reflection of God's nature and are eternal. How does the atheist account for the acceptance and validity of the laws of logic? Is it blind faith? Thanks in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reasonable way to prove anything is through reason so obviously trying to prove the basic logic fundamentals through reason would beg the question. Luckily, we dont need to prove them because they are obviously true.

Lets looks specifically at a couple rules, one mathematical and one logical.

A) 2+2 = 4,

I know this true because I understand the meanings of its parts. I can visualize 2 apples added onto 2 apples and realize this is the same as visualizing 4 apples. God is not part of my mental confirmation of its truth. I dont need to consider how God is or might be. It would be true in worlds with no God, or in a world where some God willed 2+2 to equal 13.

B) P or Q, not P, hence Q
This rule of logic is called disjunctive syllogism. Again this is obviously true. If you assume the two premises then the truth of Q should be obvious to you. Small children, retards, even dogs can do this logic. When using this basic inference you can never go from truth to falsity.

Its not blind faith. These truths can be scientifically demonstrated to work in the real world. If the mathematical and logical rules didnt hold then the computer you are sitting at wouldn't work.
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Old 12-28-2005, 02:13 AM
imported_luckyme imported_luckyme is offline
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

[ QUOTE ]
Will a computer ever be able to ...

[/ QUOTE ]

The one bet I wish I'd made every time it's been offered is "A computer will never be able to ..."
Not grabbing the 'chess' one ( which was the biggie until not to long ago) was my biggest lost opportunity.

There is no reason a computer won't be able to do anything cognitive and it won't need as much special programming as we do since it would be efficiently designed.

luckyme
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Old 12-28-2005, 02:25 AM
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

[ QUOTE ]
I have been trying to get into the mindset of atheism and have an honest question. I hear many atheists claim that the laws of logic are self-evident and axiomatic and cannot be proven. I believe this to be true. However, I believe they are a reflection of God's nature and are eternal.

[/ QUOTE ]
Delete the bit in bold from the above quote and you'll get the basic atheist perspective (i.e. nature is fundamentally logical).

Consider for a moment what it would mean if nature wasn't logical. For a start it would mean something could be true and false at the same time. The implications of this are staggering for literally everything.

Therefore, at a minimum, the rules of logic are a practical necessity. Whether they can be proven or not is irrelvant since we need them to be true if we are to function. If they are false, all are efforts to understand anything are doomed to fail.
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  #8  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:28 AM
imported_luckyme imported_luckyme is offline
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

[ QUOTE ]
I have been trying to get into the mindset of atheism...

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a big error to think of reasons for atheism as monolithic. Atheism is a conclusion people reach.. "there is no god", there are many routes to it, not just the rather logical ones we read on here. Most of the atheists I know arrive at it by much more 'common sense' routes than disproving the anthropomorphic or ontological claims.

In fact, the commonest reason I run across for atheism is "why would anyone believe that crap", and, I have to admit, unless you are a believer the xtrian beliefs particularly are pretty far out. Buddhism is a more 'reasonable' religion.

[ QUOTE ]
I hear many atheists claim that the laws of logic are self-evident and axiomatic and cannot be proven.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to get out more. Even if their claims are true, it has nothing to do with atheism ( it maybe part of their route to atheism, but so what). That would be like believing everybody at the bus stop took the bus there.

luckyme
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  #9  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:42 AM
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

A creator seems far more logical to me than believing in this soup which life crawled from with no evidence. At least people have said that there is little evidence for belief in a God... atheism is a hope that we are insignifficant, purposeless beings that are going to bite the dust soon enough. There will be no repurcussions for the life we have lived, utter meaningless.
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  #10  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:48 AM
NotReady NotReady is offline
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

[ QUOTE ]

How does the atheist account for the acceptance and validity of the laws of logic? Is it blind faith?


[/ QUOTE ]

Good questions. No atheist worldview can rationally account for logic, science or morality. Getting them to admit it is difficult even though atheists like Nietzsche and Russell make similar statements.

If you want an exercise in futility try getting them to admit the universe is irrational. Don't bother pointing out how many atheist philosophers have said so.
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