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  #1  
Old 04-28-2005, 10:16 AM
Texas Pete Texas Pete is offline
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Default drawing, but not the nuts...

In a multiway pot, is it ever a good idea to try and draw something, if you know that "something" won't be the nuts??
If so, do you have an example??
Low limit, high limit, pot limit... how does your answer change??
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  #2  
Old 04-28-2005, 10:39 AM
Ray Zee Ray Zee is offline
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Default Re: drawing, but not the nuts...

depends on what you read the hands for. if you dont know or have lots of opponents those draws dont do well espcially back more than one notch.
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  #3  
Old 04-28-2005, 10:59 AM
GeoffM GeoffM is offline
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Default Re: drawing, but not the nuts...

Really depends on the situation. Need more info for any type of comment.

Mainly, size of pot, amount $ relative to pot to draw, and whether or not you would be closing the betting.
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  #4  
Old 04-28-2005, 11:26 AM
Texas Pete Texas Pete is offline
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Default Re: drawing, but not the nuts...

Suppose I limp in from the button with 4 players, low limit, with

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

and the flop comes

8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Action is bet, call, call to me...

I think if I take a card here I want an A or T, or a high spade, not something like 2-7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], because I may expect one of the limpers to make a boat with his lotta-low-cards hand. And really, is taking a card here justified since I have no shot at the low, pot odds are 7:1, odds to draw top boat is 4 out of 45 roughly 11:1??
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  #5  
Old 04-28-2005, 11:49 AM
GeoffM GeoffM is offline
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Default Re: drawing, but not the nuts...

Fold.

You have 4 outs out of 45 cards, so yeah, 11:1. However, your pot odds are not 7:1, since the pot will likely be split, with 22:45 cards making a low (you don't have one).
So your pot odds are really like 2: or maybe 3:1.

Yup, fold. Anyone with a 4 has you beat, plus you have no shot at low. I only draw to "almost" nuts when I am drawing both ways and have a solid chance at least to catch one end of the pot both ways.

Example of a hand I would draw with is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , A3 MAY hold up, flush could hit, low boat could hit, 2 could hit giving you nut low.
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  #6  
Old 04-28-2005, 11:52 AM
Texas Pete Texas Pete is offline
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Default Re: drawing, but not the nuts...

[ QUOTE ]
I only draw to "almost" nuts when I am drawing both ways and have a solid chance at least to catch one end of the pot both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a quick example?
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  #7  
Old 04-28-2005, 11:55 AM
GeoffM GeoffM is offline
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Default Re: drawing, but not the nuts...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I only draw to "almost" nuts when I am drawing both ways and have a solid chance at least to catch one end of the pot both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a quick example?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, just posted one.

My logic here is that you are sacrificing the 2 outs (10s) for 4 unknown deuces giving you half the pot. If a 2 hits, ram and jam, you have 2 of the aces and 2 of the 3s so unlikely someone else is holding it.
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  #8  
Old 04-28-2005, 12:04 PM
Texas Pete Texas Pete is offline
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Default Re: drawing, but not the nuts...

Thanks, and also to Mr. Zee. Actually I started thinking about this after reading the comment in Mr. Zee's book about making money from players who draw for less than the nuts. I don't want to be one of those players!
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  #9  
Old 04-28-2005, 12:50 PM
gergery gergery is offline
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Default Re: drawing, but not the nuts...

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose I limp in from the button with 4 players, low limit, with

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

and the flop comes

8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Action is bet, call, call to me...

I think if I take a card here I want an A or T, or a high spade, not something like 2-7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], because I may expect one of the limpers to make a boat with his lotta-low-cards hand. And really, is taking a card here justified since I have no shot at the low, pot odds are 7:1, odds to draw top boat is 4 out of 45 roughly 11:1??

[/ QUOTE ]

I would count it like this:
2 outs to hit an A. If you hit a low is on the board, so count this as ~.8 of an out.

2 outs to hit a T. If you hit, half the time a low will hit on the river, so count this as ~1.5 outs.

Flush. It's more likely than not that one of your opponents has a 4, and if he does, then he's roughly 50% or so likely to get his boat or have it now. So your 9 flush outs are worth 5 if they hit, but over half of them enable lows and the ones that don't still have lows to hit on the river. So I'll be generous can count the flush as ~1.75 outs.

Net, I get about 4 outs, which is ~10.5:1. BUT, that's 4 effective outs to get from here to the river, which means you need 11:1 odds on the sum of money put in on the flop and turn. Which means you need a pot here of 20 small bets or so, depending on how the action goes.

So its an easy fold, but that's the way I'd think it thru.

--Greg
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  #10  
Old 04-28-2005, 02:55 PM
HopeydaFish HopeydaFish is offline
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Default Re: drawing, but not the nuts...

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, and also to Mr. Zee. Actually I started thinking about this after reading the comment in Mr. Zee's book about making money from players who draw for less than the nuts. I don't want to be one of those players!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you don't want to be one of those players. I had a bad night last night chasing draws that would be less than the nuts. I lost a good part of my previous days' profits by playing like this. I knew that I shouldn't be calling, but I kept doing it anyway. This always seems to happen when I'm too tired to be playing.

Generally, my rule of thumb is that I only call with a drawing hand if I have a good shot at the nuts. It serves me well, it just takes more patience than I can muster when I'm tired. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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