My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising)

lautzutao · #1 09-09-2005, 06:55 AM

My lack of checkraising in multiway pots is a huge flaw in my game, and here it cost me dearly. I figured I'd just post this hand as an example to those that share this common problem.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls, CO raises, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, MP1 folds, CO calls, Button caps, Hero calls, BB calls, CO calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 26.50 BB

Results :
Hero has 5s 5d (three of a kind, fives).
BB has 7d 4c (straight, seven high).
CO has 8d 9d (one pair, nines).
Button has Jh 4h (straight, six high).
Outcome: BB wins 26.50 BB. 

I'm 100% sure that a bet would have been placed to my left had I checked this flop, and could have more than likely have chased out at least the big blind, making him possibly call 3 cold seeing the action that ensued my bet.

I wanted to scream when I saw the results, but realized it was my fault the pot was lost. Live and learn I guess...

@bsolute_luck · #2 09-09-2005, 07:36 AM

if it helps: you were losing that hand regardless of whether you c/r or not. Loose Button had a flush draw with the 4 and was calling down regardless...hope that helps [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Innocentius · #3 09-09-2005, 07:51 AM

I don't really understand your reasoning here. How could you be sure of a bet from your left on this flop. UTG was the pf raiser. Wouldn't you expect him to bet? If he does, and you check-raise, you can only drive BB out (if even him). It turned out that his was the draw that would come in, but you couldn't know that on the flop.

Actually, I quite like the flop line you took. Bet out, hoping that the pf raiser raises you, thus maby clearing out some of the 3 players behind him.

Nytecaster · #4 09-09-2005, 08:12 AM

In higher limits I would say yes but this is just too low a limit for a check/raise to limit the field. Money in these games comes from punishing the field with their draws which is what you are doing on the flop and turn. Your river play is questionable as there is a flush and straight draw on the board, both of which cover your set.

Are you still happy when you win 4 out of 5 hands in these exact circumstances? I thought you would say yes.

Continue to play the flop strong (and the turn if you feel you are still ahead) but when that board gets threatening against a school of fish even they can be like shark. Realize that their raise may just be two pair but could also be the flush or straight that came through. Point is, you don't know and the pot is already big and there are no other cards to come so might as well play it safe on this round.

Take it for what it's worth.

[ QUOTE ]
My lack of checkraising in multiway pots is a huge flaw in my game, and here it cost me dearly. I figured I'd just post this hand as an example to those that share this common problem.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls, CO raises, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, MP1 folds, CO calls, Button caps, Hero calls, BB calls, CO calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 26.50 BB

Results :
Hero has 5s 5d (three of a kind, fives).
BB has 7d 4c (straight, seven high).
CO has 8d 9d (one pair, nines).
Button has Jh 4h (straight, six high).
Outcome: BB wins 26.50 BB. 

I'm 100% sure that a bet would have been placed to my left had I checked this flop, and could have more than likely have chased out at least the big blind, making him possibly call 3 cold seeing the action that ensued my bet.

I wanted to scream when I saw the results, but realized it was my fault the pot was lost. Live and learn I guess...

[/ QUOTE ]

@bsolute_luck · #5 09-09-2005, 08:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In higher limits I would say yes but this is just too low a limit for a check/raise to limit the field.

[/ QUOTE ]
could you explain this. i don't get it.

[ QUOTE ]
Money in these games comes from punishing the field with their draws which is what you are doing on the flop and turn

[/ QUOTE ] this is true no matter what limit you are playing.

i like how the entire hand was played.

jrz1972 · #6 09-09-2005, 08:17 AM

You should be checking the flop so you can check-raise UTG's bet and trap the whole field for two bets. You don't want to fold people out; you want to build a pot.

Yes, you're right that you should have gone for a check-raise but your reasoning process is skewed and results-oriented.

jrz1972 · #7 09-09-2005, 08:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really understand your reasoning here. How could you be sure of a bet from your left on this flop. UTG was the pf raiser. Wouldn't you expect him to bet? If he does, and you check-raise, you can only drive BB out (if even him). It turned out that his was the draw that would come in, but you couldn't know that on the flop.

Actually, I quite like the flop line you took. Bet out, hoping that the pf raiser raises you, thus maby clearing out some of the 3 players behind him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh.

Why do you want to clear out a bunch of players behind you? You have a monster hand on a ragged, relatively drawless board. You WANT people calling so you can get paid off on your set. Trap the field.

numeri · #8 09-09-2005, 08:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You should be checking the flop so you can check-raise UTG's bet and trap the whole field for two bets. You don't want to fold people out; you want to build a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
This was my first thought as well.

To the OP: Don't worry about the results. Worry about whether each decision is correct.

#9 09-09-2005, 09:24 AM

Seems like you're being results oriented here. Middle set you want to build the pot, not knock out opponents too quickly.

lautzutao · #10 09-09-2005, 09:31 AM

Alright, I understand that I'm being results oriented with my incorrect reason for checkraising. But a checkraise here is the better play yes? Maybe not 3-bet it if it's bet/raised but at least raise here if UTG bets here and it comes around to me?