Quick poll: what's your play on the flop?

[meep_42]

I'm not convinced the Q changes anything on the turn, since I think AQ isn't very likely, so i'd be more inclined to call down both UI. Getting past the turn is the hard part, imo, once you get to the river (with 1 bet on the turn), it's hard to lay down for 1 more, but lots of times you're only hoping he fired 3 bullets with AK/AQ.

-d

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming you fold the flop:
1) Were you born retarded, and why?
2) Were you always worthless and weak, and why?

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Well played.

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Also, depending on how good of a TAG the opponent is, his 3betting range is MUCH wider.

-SmileyEH

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Just to add, if we're referring to the linked post... hero had been raising more lightly in previous orbits. If villain is a good TAG he would've definitely figured this into his 3-betting range.

[ReptileHouse]

1) What’s your line if the villain 3 bets?

Call. Call down on bricks. Fold if A/K hits.

If a Q hits on the turn, call and fold river UI.

I am undecided about whether to raise an 8 on the turn (i.e., I haven't done the math).

2) What’s your line if the villain calls, but the turn is a scare card such as A, K, or Q?

If Q, call, else fold. Just calling the raise puts BB pretty solidly on overcards.

Assuming the hero calls the flop:
1) What’s your line and why if the villain checks the turn?

Bet/fold turn, bet/call non-scare river. If he c/r's, he's not afraid of giving a free card, so he's very confident in his hand, so I think we can safely fold there. If he check/calls, he's showing weakness implying either overcards he's not yet willing to let go of or a hand we very possible beat.

2) What’s your line and why if the villain bets a safe card?

call down.

3) What’s your line and why if the villain bets a scare card?

Call if it's a Q, else fold.


OK, now I'll probably get shown all kinds of good math about why all of the above lines which include the word "fold" are weak/tight. That's OK, though. I'd rather get told that here than shown that at the table. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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I'm not convinced the Q changes anything on the turn, since I think AQ isn't very likely, so i'd be more inclined to call down both UI. Getting past the turn is the hard part, imo, once you get to the river (with 1 bet on the turn), it's hard to lay down for 1 more, but lots of times you're only hoping he fired 3 bullets with AK/AQ.

-d

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Not sure how the math goes, but it seems a Q would help him more often than an 8. I'm thinking KQ, KQs, AQ, AQs. Only hand I can see a generic TAG 3-betting from the blind is maybe 88.

If we are going into calldown mode it wouldn't surprise me to see him firing away all streets with a lower pair like 99, 88, 77.

Disclaimer: 1) I don't play against TAGs much so I'm not sure how to really handle them, and 2) I suck.

[sthief09]

call and raise the turn

[Luv2DriveTT]

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Also, depending on how good of a TAG the opponent is, his 3betting range is MUCH wider.

-SmileyEH

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Just to add, if we're referring to the linked post... hero had been raising more lightly in previous orbits. If villain is a good TAG he would've definitely figured this into his 3-betting range.

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Thank you gentlemen. I think this is a big part of the difference in opinion between Derek and myself. Derek assumes all TAGs are good players. I assume all TAGs are tight and agressive, and might be good players (until proven otherwise). Derek assumes that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range is very small. I assume that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range might be small, or it could be much wider due to the assumption of Superior post flop play, steaming, or the long shot hope to get the hand heads up and take the lead on the flop (dumb move IMHO, but its amazing how often idiots try).

Its two different philosophies that result in two different plays on the flop/turn. I do however find it interesting that the most respected small stakes posters who have weighed in on this hand agree with my flop play of calling & raising the turn, where as the majority have voted to side with Derek's flop play of raising the pre-flop aggressor. What does that mean to you?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[colgin]

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Also, depending on how good of a TAG the opponent is, his 3betting range is MUCH wider.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to add, if we're referring to the linked post... hero had been raising more lightly in previous orbits. If villain is a good TAG he would've definitely figured this into his 3-betting range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you gentlemen. I think this is a big part of the difference in opinion between Derek and myself. Derek assumes all TAGs are good players. I assume all TAGs are tight and agressive, and might be good players (until proven otherwise). Derek assumes that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range is very small. I assume that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range might be small, or it could be much wider due to the assumption of Superior post flop play, steaming, or the long shot hope to get the hand heads up and take the lead on the flop (dumb move IMHO, but its amazing how often idiots try).

Its two different philosophies that result in two different plays on the flop/turn. I do however find it interesting that the most respected small stakes posters who have weighed in on this hand agree with my flop play of calling & raising the turn, where as the majority have voted to side with Derek's flop play of raising the pre-flop aggressor. What does that mean to you?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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I don't see why even the assumption that TAG is a good post-flop player means we should raise the flop. In that case I still want to call and raise most turn cards.

[chief444]

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I assume that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range might be small, or it could be much wider due to the assumption of Superior post flop play, steaming, or the long shot hope to get the hand heads up and take the lead on the flop (dumb move IMHO, but its amazing how often idiots try).


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TT,

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious here. But his 3-betting range should be big here. Not for the purpose of taking the lead or whatever. But for the sake of getting HU with some extra dead money in the pot. This is not a bad 3-bet with something like 77/88 or A9/AT. I mean, meeps range of raising hands on the button with one bad limper and tight blinds should be freakin huge. So BB's range of 3-betting hands should not be small.

Chief

[gaming_mouse]

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call and raise the turn

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