You have two choices.

[sthief09]

the problem with waiting to raise every flop is that there are a good amount of flops where it's entirely unprofitable to be raising, like AKx. the problem with using discretion is that we don't get him to fold every time he's willing to. while it might be unprofitable to take a shot at an AKx flop, there still is some folding equity, the times QQ-66 decide not to peel one or don't think you're full of it. so by raising every flop, you're playing suboptimally, but by showing discretion you aren't maxing out your folding equity.

capping preflop has the problem that you're putting in an extra sb (2 actually since he has to match your cap) which gives him more enticing odds to run you down or peel a card when he has 99 on an AQx board just to see if you'll check the turn. a follow up bet after a preflop cap and flop bet is probably a bit less strong looking than one after calling preflop and raising the flop.

EDIT: I need to rethink the above paragraph because it's wrong but I can't right now

so I think it's going to depend on your opponent. against someone who is loose and aggressive, we are better off keeping the pot smaller to reduce his bluffing odds in case you flop bad, and to punish him more for betting a 6 outer.

against a tighter player, I like building a pot while striking some fear in him, which will hopefully force him to make a mistake later in the hand, like folding QJ on a ragged flop getting 9.5-1

I hope you decide to cross post this to MHS

[imported_stealthcow]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem with waiting to raise every flop is that there are a good amount of flops where it's entirely unprofitable to be raising, like AKx. the problem with using discretion is that we don't get him to fold every time. while it might be unprofitable to take a shot at an AKx flop, there still is some folding equity, the times QQ-66 decide not to peel one or think you're full of it. so by raising every flop, you're playing suboptimally, but by showing discretion you aren't maxing out your folding equity.

capping preflop has the problem that you're putting in an extra sb (2 actually since he has to match your cap) which gives him more enticing odds to run you down or peel a card when he has 99 on an AQx board just to see if you'll check the turn. a follow up bet after a preflop cap and flop bet is probably a bit less strong looking than one after calling preflop and raising the flop.

so I think it's going to depend on your opponent. against someone who is loose and aggressive, we are better off keeping the pot smaller to reduce his bluffing odds in case you flop bad, and to punish him more for betting a 6 outer.

against a tighter player, I like building a pot while striking some fear in him, which will hopefully force him to make a mistake later in the hand, like folding QJ on a ragged flop getting 9.5-1

I hope you decide to cross post this to MHS

[/ QUOTE ]


very nice post

[cartman]

If preflop cluelessness were an olympic sport, I would be the gold medalist. In light of that fact, I don't have anything of my own to add. But in this archived thread, Nikla weighs in on the matter. In his example Hero was SB and villain was BB, but he said:

[ QUOTE ]

I dont understand why people cap preflop headsup like that. You're far better off against typical opponents just calling the 3-bet, no matter if u have AA or Ace-junk. If you 4-bet preflop, youre leading 100% of the time at a 5 sb cost. If you call his 3-bet and checkraise every flop you will be in a much better position to take down the pot at the same 5 sb cost. The only argument I see for capping it preflop would be against opponents who automatically puts on you a big ace rather than a big pair when you cap it pre and will give you action if they pair up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cartman

[wheelz]

i don't know about that. like trix said, most people fold on the flop for one more SB here hardly ever. i think if you take option 2 you're going to be in so many spots where you don't like your hand but feel like you probably have to fire again on the turn... i just don't think you can say that raising any flop is better because it has more FE for the same 5 sb investment because you're usually going to have to put in 7 sb to actually take down a pot this way.

i hardly ever cap preflop in this situation in real life, but i think if you had to call then raise every flop, you'd be better over the long run to just cap preflop. i'm no longer sure that raising every flop gives you that much more FE at all.

I haven't read many of the responses, but I think 1 is the best play. If you wait until the flop to raise, you give your opponent the option of 3-betting the flops that help him and just calling or folding those that don't. You are giving them more information before they act, while you are bound by these rules. Of course, you can cap to continue the bluff, but that is just asking for trouble.

Another argument is purely statistical. If you cap preflop, you are representing hands that will make paint flops scarier, which increases your fold equity, and probably more than half the time a paint will hit that doesn't hit your opponent. That means that you can probably take down the pot more than half the time, which is +EV of course.

Check-raising the flop isn't as scary as a bet from a preflop capper (to me anyway), even if the flop missed, and you will have to bet the turn after he peels, which presents more problems if a bad turn hits. Not to mention that he may raise you on the turn if he hit the flop well and you showed donk aggression on the flop. That would be bad for you.

[TStoneMBD]

after reading all these responses i think we can all agree that this is pretty close. i indicated to this in my original post that by just calling preflop you have the option to raise the flop on certain boards and to not raise it on certain boards. by capping preflop it takes away that option from you.

because of that, if you take away the pretense that you are forced to raise any flop and only raise any flop when you feel its +ev instead, i think it becomes clear that capping preflop is a mistake and calling is right because if gives you that option to extract EV.

[ QUOTE ]
after reading all these responses i think we can all agree that this is pretty close. i indicated to this in my original post that by just calling preflop you have the option to raise the flop on certain boards and to not raise it on certain boards. by capping preflop it takes away that option from you.

because of that, if you take away the pretense that you are forced to raise any flop and only raise any flop when you feel its +ev instead, i think it becomes clear that capping preflop is a mistake and calling is right because if gives you that option to extract EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
Didnt you write the complete opposite in the other thread about capping light? I am all for capping light against timid opponents who suddenly wake up because they feel you are a thief. I wouldnt cap a LAG.

[TStoneMBD]

no i dont think i wrote anything about contradictory in the capping light thread. if you feel that i did please elaborate. i still believe that it is sometimes correct to just call the flop and raise the turn with these pairs and i think my reasoning that you quoted is sound logic.