Betting/raising for information -- request for a theory post

[Rococo]

I feel that the weaker players on this forum (and I don't count myself among the strongest) tend to favor lines that involve betting or raising to "find out where you are".

Too often, I think that the real thought process is: "I want to convey to my opponent that I believe that I am ahead on the flop in the hope that he will give up and I won't have to make a decision on the turn." Taking a line in order to define your opponent's hand may have some merit. Taking a line in order to define your own hand for your opponent usually sucks, particularly if the stacks are deep and the players are strong.

I would be interested to read a thoughtful theory post from one of the experts on this subject.

[gomberg]

I think the problem with raising for information is that it is very expensive in big-bet games. For it to be correct, your opponent has to play a certain way most of the time so that the information you gain is correct - 2nd, you have to have very little chance of improvment to your hand. 3rd, you have to be sure that you'd lose more money than the raise or bet if you just call / check down the hand to showdown.

As you can see, the parlay of these events all being likely is usually far-fetched. If it's rarely correct to raise for information in limit, where it is relatively cheap, what makes you think this is the case in big bet (I know - a bad comparison because of future bets)? I'm not saying I never do it - you just have to pick your spots (board texture and opponents) wisely to make this a good EV play - hence why bad players like to do it a lot.

Also, most of your bets / raises are not "just for information" - as this is usually one side-effect of raising. If this is the primary purpose of a bet, then the criteria I listed (as well as some I forgot I'm sure), better be there for it to be a decent play. Usually it's not optimal.

[MagnoliasFM]

Betting to find out where you are at is only good against about 99% of the poker players in the world--in other words it's only good against bad players. If you're reading this forum, there's a good chance that you're not in the 99% so I could see why you think it might not be a good idea (against you at least).

[quix0tic]

I make these kind of, "hey I have top pair and want the pot, please go away before the turn" bets, but only against players (judged by me) not sophisticated enough to use it against me. You are very much right in saying that one should be careful when using them, and always aware of the information surrendered.

It should be noted however that poker is in many ways a struggle to correctly balance competing factors. Many times playing your hand profitably (not allowing free card, etc) reflexively tends to define your hand. Good NL is learning to compare the deception line against the ABC line, and decided which is most profitable, given their cards, your actions, these conditions, and these players. Information should never be given for free, but sometimes depection is more costly than honest betting. I would estimate that most of the worse NL players I know slowplay much more than the better ones.