Opportunity Comes Knocking

[quix0tic]

6 max party 1000pl - recently sat down, all players seem fairly average, no extreme agression or loose calling. I'm at about 1300, villain about the same.

dealt 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in UTG+1. I raise to 30. CO makes it 90. I call. Flop 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check, villain bets 95, I call. Turn 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I bet 140, Villain raises to 340, I push for 850 more.

results:<font color="white">
Villain agonizes for 10 seconds and folds. Hero takes it down. He claimed afterward to have KK which I believe, even expect, given the action. The fact that this felt routine for me makes me feel like I've made it as a deepstack player. This isn't a play I would have even considered a year ago, but playing deep well requires creative thinking. When opportunity comes knocking, answer the call. </font>

Thoughts? Standard or Unusual?

[greg nice]

when he raises your stop and go, i dont know how much fold equity i could put him on. i think he made a bad raise in this case.

what about a check raise on the turn instead? if youve got him pegged on KK or AA, let him bet like 200 and you raise to 500. then maybe you can salvage some money incase he is stubborn with his overpair.

also, whats with the underbetting?

[AZK]

Nice play, but what hand are you representing with this move? This will only work against a handful of opponents I believe...did you have a read on this guy?

[Rococo]

I think that you got lucky here. Is Villain supposed to believe that you open raised and then called a bet preflop with x3, or 78? Is he supposed to believe that you flopped a set and then check-called the flop on a draw heavy board? Does he have any reason to believe that you are capable of open raising a hand like 44 out of position? If you were that confident in your read, then god bless, but I think that you will get picked off here more often than not by good players.

Also, the stacks aren't really that "deep" here. You started with 130BB. The pot was so large by the time you pushed that Villain was still getting 2 to 1 to make this call.

[The Truth]

I tend to agree with Rococo. I dislike the play.
I dont really believe many of the party opponents fold KK here. It is most likely a fluke barring some strong read on the oponent.

[ghostface]

yeah no deep stacks here unless you consider &gt;100BB as deep.

[soah]

If this play is routine for you then I hope you have allotted yourself a large poker budget.

[not_da_nizzles]

Villain is scared money. Did he think you'd raise in EP with a 3 or 78? He's seeing ghosts in the board or something.

Since you raised pre-flop I'd have called this with KK and expected to see you flip over 77 (or some other PP lower than Kings TT/JJ).

mj

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to agree with Rococo. I dislike the play.


[/ QUOTE ]

I hope yu have shown down some SC in pots yu have raised or at least stood some heaviesh preflop action.

[quix0tic]

I feel like you guys are missing the point. On the turn, it becomes obvious that I have the worst hand. This can dually justify a laydown or a push. I know I'm behind but put yourself in his seat. You see a 6 5 4 2 board where you just raised 200 and got reraised 850 more, what exactly do you put the other guy on? The danger of revealing your hand with deepstacks is that if you subsequently get raised, you have to fold or try to catch a bluff. The preflop action IS important but not as it pertains to his hand, not mine. He is ABC and has AK or QQ-AA after the preflop raise. I on the other hand could still have tons of crap. I know he cannot have a 3. He doesn't know anything. He can't call his stack off hoping that I'm making some insane bluff. I fold routinely in his position and simply expected the same. He's getting an ok price but he's drawing dead against a 3 and very slim against a set. I don't think its essential to discussing the hand, but it should be said I wouldn't make this play without a tight table image.

The fact that its only 130bb doesnt really matter; the concepts are those of deep play. I play tons of boring hands where both players have 400bb. They just aren't post worthy. When money is big and deep, information becomes very valuable. For instance, against a player who never bets his draws, I will check raise huge once a flush comes regardless of my cards (assuming he bet the flop). This guy gave his hand away preflop and lost the pot because of it.

This hand is a kind of rorschach test. When I ask horrible players what to do, they say push you have overpair. When I ask decent or good players what to do, they all say fold you are behind. When I ask really strong players what to do, they say push him off his big pair.

Plays like this are why diablo, chan, negreanu, prahlad or whoever can destroy a tight NL table. I'm no gus and don't make plays like this often, but I think they are interesting and suggestive of high level thinking.

I play in this game often and am at around 11bb/100 for 7k hands or so. I generally raise first in about 80% of the time meaning I could easily hold A3s, 22-66, 34s, 45s, 56s. Preflop action does not rule out a trey. In fact, raise and then smooth call points to small pair. I'm fairly tight post flop so once the reraise goes in, a straight seems quite obvious.

In all seriousness, who can make that call with KK? Against someone you think is a tight ABC player? It's an easy fold. I think you guys would treat this differently if I didn't post what I had. Nizzles if u call with KK there without a VERY strong read, you will get killed in this game.