Cards live till literally touching the Muck?

jjnidguy · #1 08-04-2005, 05:19 PM

Hey guys,

This happened to me at the Mirage while I was in Vegas playing in the WSOP, in June.

Was playing a limit game. With no callers before me, I start a bluff on the button with 7-5. SB folds, BB calls. Flop comes A K 7. He checks, and I can tell he doesnt like flop so I bet, he calls after a bit. Turn comes K, he checks I bet, he again hesitantly calls. River is blank, he checks, I bet to try to take it, he calls after some thought.

When the showdown comes, I verbally say "pair of sevens" and flip over at the same time. He mucks his hand and says good hand, but the cards dont actually physically touch the pile of muck, they get like half way there, a few feet from his hand and face down. Then someone says "you couldnt beat 7s?" And he takes a closer look at my hand thats still face up as im raking in the pot and says "oh just two 7s, I thought you said three sevens" then he flips his hand over and shows wired tens. Then the dealer starts shoving the chips to him. And Im like "Ahhh, he mucked his hand, that pots mine". Then he tells me how the hand didnt actually physically touch the muck and its actually still alive for him to flip over.

Now I know that touching the muck is important for it being a dead hand. However, i thought that was when the dealer accidently takes your hand, you are able to save it if you get to it before it touches the muck. In a showdown situation, a hand should be dead as soon as they make an obvious folding gesture or say 'fold'. That sounds kinda loose, but an 'obvious' check motion is binding even if the person didnt intend to check.

How did it turn out? The dealer asked me if i wanted to ask the floor, I was in a good mood and it was low limit and I was just messing around, so I said let him have it, I dont really care, he made a good call, why not.

What do you guys think the rules are in this situation?

FouTight · #2 08-04-2005, 05:30 PM

in the spirt of the game he won.

He had a better hand, didn't understand you, and you are trying to win a pot that your cards don't justify you winning.

jjnidguy · #3 08-04-2005, 05:32 PM

right, which is why I let him take it, without calling the floor.

But Id like to know what the technical answer is.

Im pretty sure I do have the right to the pot.

autobet · #4 08-04-2005, 05:33 PM

The player called the last bet, so has a right to win the showdown if he has the best hand. His hand was not mucked, so he would probably be awarded the pot. (I don't know the specific rules at the Mirage)

As a dealer, they should immediatley muck the cards when they are folded face down and tossed towards them. But until they do so, the hand is retrievable.

AngusThermopyle · #5 08-04-2005, 06:05 PM

Then someone says "you couldnt beat 7s?"

"someone" deserves an ostomy.

4_2_it · #6 08-04-2005, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Then someone says "you couldnt beat 7s?"

"someone" deserves an ostomy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or, at a minimum, a kick in the nuts if Mr Capone Jr is available.

random · #7 08-04-2005, 06:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
right, which is why I let him take it, without calling the floor.

[/ QUOTE ] No, you let him take it because you were in a good mood and it was low limit and you were just messing around.

Letting him have it doesn't make you a good guy. It just doesn't make you a dick, which is a good thing.

Also, your river bet was bad.

ThinkQuick · #8 08-04-2005, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As a dealer, they should immediatley muck the cards when they are folded face down and tossed towards them. But until they do so, the hand is retrievable.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would stop so much of the confusion.

Next time, if possible, wait until his cards are mucked before showing. You did not overrepresent your hand and he willingly mucked. His mistake.
You did a good job giving him the pot, but if you want it next time, just wait 'till cards are mucked.

DesertCat · #9 08-04-2005, 07:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
right, which is why I let him take it, without calling the floor.

But Id like to know what the technical answer is.

Im pretty sure I do have the right to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't. If he had thrown his cards into the muck, and then tried to retrieve them, you still would have lost. Cards can still be played from the muck when they are "easily retrievable", and it's in the best interests of the game.

If the dealer mucks the cards, then they are dead. If the player mucks, they sometimes still can play.

Rick Nebiolo · #10 08-05-2005, 10:43 AM

Even in the big clubs in LA where the rules are "more or less" standardized you are going to get different decisions here. When I worked the floor years ago I'd tend to award the pot to the best hand because my interpertation is that "card's speak" and "best hand gets the pot" (when all action is complete) trumps most other rules. But some very experienced floormen would argue that in this case "one player to a hand" was violated, and thus the pot would be awarded to you.

BTW, cards that are clearly identifiable can be retrieved from the muck in certain circumstances.

~ Rick