Common problem: KK gets donked by an A-high flop

Kumubou · #1 08-03-2005, 09:15 PM

Common problem: You get a premium PP not AA, you raise pre-flop and a bunch of people donk along only to find an A-high flop. Ugh.

SB here is fairly tight for the game (probably TOO tight), 17/7 and I have not seen him get out of line.

Nothing of value on UTG or MP.

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Heroine is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Heroine raises, UTG calls, MP calls, SB calls.

Pre-flop is gay.

Flop: (8 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, Heroine...?

Here are my options:

a) Be weak-tight and fold.
b) Call like a bith.
c) Raise, hoping to knock out weak two pair/trips draws (and if I can get an ace to fold that would me wonderful... doubt it, though). You also run the very high risk of scaring a loose/passive weak ace to calling down, which is no g00t.

Pot now: 4.50 BB

-K

istewart · #2 08-03-2005, 09:18 PM

On this flop I think folding is best.

Iron Tigran · #3 08-04-2005, 06:38 AM

Anytime an A flops and you don't have one in your hand, it's likely bad news (aside from something awesome like AQ5 and you hold QQ, natch).

I don't see why folding KK to a "too tight" player who leads into you when you showed pf strength is "weak tight."

What are "two pair/trips draws"?

NDHand · #4 08-04-2005, 07:05 AM

I would fold on this extremly ragged flop. If it were HU I might call down but this flop is just way too uncoordinated for his bet to represent anything else than an ace. No straight or flush draws are possible. Since he's 17/7 and decent postflop I really dont think he's betting a pair of 8s or 99-KK here into 3 players. He's probably hoping you'll raise the field. Even if he did get tricky and is betting a lower PP/pair of 8s, anyone behind you could hold an ace. Even if no one has an ace now, anyone with 78/89 or even the lowly deuce-trey has a reasonable chance to draw out on you whereas you have practically no chance to outdraw your opponents if you're behind. All those reasons make it a fold for me.

bjarne · #5 08-04-2005, 07:12 AM

If he's not very agressive he wouldn't bet into 3 people including the PFR without the A or better. If he's as tight as you say he's hardly betting the small 2-pair.

It's easy in theory though. If I've waited for a long time to get a decent hand and KK/QQ shows up I tend to take these hands way too far myself (usually raising on the flop for a free card on the turn [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] although I know it -EV.

Webster · #6 08-04-2005, 07:16 AM

Fold - people play any Ace and when that baby hits - I will almost always fold,

KK IS an ace magnet!

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flo · #7 08-04-2005, 07:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold - people play any Ace and when that baby hits - I will almost always fold,

KK IS an ace magnet!

[/ QUOTE ]

Check your PT stats - it's not. The sample size for the read has to be real big for me to not raise this flop. If he 3bets, i fold though.

bjarne · #8 08-04-2005, 07:43 AM

This is a real problem hand for me as well.

Whenever I raise the KK on the flop in this situation it is with the intention to fold to a three-bet on the flop. But what usually happens is that the original bettor just calls.

Assuming the other two players fold on your raise on the flop and, as it often happends at micro-limit, SB calls the raise on the flop

what do you do then on the turn if

SB bets the turn again?

SB checks the turn?

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

imported_The Vibesman · #9 08-04-2005, 08:13 AM

Folding might be best, but I might be inclined in some cases to call the flop bet and see what happens, reserving the right to fold if raised behind me or if SB continues to bet into me on the turn. Here, though, IF your read is accurate (despite sample size), your bettor probably wouldn't bet into a preflop raiser w/ A-rag kicker, so he may even have A8 or A2. But when I think my opponent may take a stab, or is weak tight and may be scared of being outkicked, I find that calling the flop can lead to him checking the turn to me. This works better heads-up though.
I also doubt that raising will knock out a better hand, and anyone you are ahead of is drawing pretty thin, so I'm not wild about that.

Nfinity · #10 08-04-2005, 08:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a real problem hand for me as well.

Whenever I raise the KK on the flop in this situation it is with the intention to fold to a three-bet on the flop. But what usually happens is that the original bettor just calls.

Assuming the other two players fold on your raise on the flop and, as it often happends at micro-limit, SB calls the raise on the flop

what do you do then on the turn if

SB bets the turn again?

SB checks the turn?

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm usually raising flops here and folding to a 3-bet.

If villian has an ace it's probably a weak one and villian will be afraid of kicker trouble. This raise will get us free cards in this situation.

If SB bets again on the Turn I'm gone. I'll get him next time when I have AQ or something of that nature.

What you do on the Turn if villian checks is primarily based on your read and how sure you are villian has an Ace. If you are almost positive he's got the goods I take the free card. If there is still doubt in my mind based on read I will bet with the intention of taking a free showdown.