A problem I have with Atheism

[sexdrugsmoney]

Hi guys, this is my first post in Science, Math, and Philosophy and it seems like a very good forum.

The title of this thread is a little misleading, since there are various degrees of beliefs among atheists, from weak to strong, about a deity(ies) and an afterlife.

There are alot of arguments from rationalists against religion, specifically regarding the burden of proof and a concept like faith.

One of the things I have heard many athiests say is that when you are dead you are dead, there is no afterlife, you cease to be etc.

I have always found this illogical, if anyone can enlighten me I'd be very attentive, but here's an example:

5 people: (feel free to add details yourself, they are not added here because devising a judgement for humanity's actions is far beyond us and would likely be larger than all the Tax Legislations of the world combined)

1 person who is nice to everyone.
1 person who is nice to no-one.
1 person who is nice to some people.
1 person who is neither nice or mean.
1 person who is a child rapist and cannibal.

If there is no afterlife, then all these people meet the same end, and to me that is illogical.

If your actions in life are totally insignificant then nothing is 'wrong' and nothing is 'right'.

Cheers,
SDM

[BZ_Zorro]

[ QUOTE ]
1 person who is nice to no-one.
1 person who is nice to some people.
1 person who is neither nice or mean.
1 person who is a child rapist and cannibal.

If there is no afterlife, then all these people meet the same end, and to me that is illogical.

[/ QUOTE ]
How is this illogical? Seems like you have a deeply ingrained belief that there should be eternal justice.

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If your actions in life are totally insignificant then nothing is 'wrong' and nothing is 'right'

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Your actions are not insignificant, they have an effect on people in the here and now. If you're intelligent enough to understand this, and normal enough to care, then figuring out what's right and what's wrong isn't that hard.

[David Sklansky]

"If you're intelligent enough to understand this, and normal enough to care, then figuring out what's right and what's wrong isn't that hard."

Technically speaking, Not Ready and I disagree with you. He uses Hitler to make his point. An abberation that is not persuasive. So lets change that to Slavery.

[sexdrugsmoney]

Zorro, please let us open a discourse that is friendly and that has the ultimate goal of enlightment. I don't believe the answers to this question is a simple as you make it out to be.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1 person who is nice to no-one.
1 person who is nice to some people.
1 person who is neither nice or mean.
1 person who is a child rapist and cannibal.

If there is no afterlife, then all these people meet the same end, and to me that is illogical.

[/ QUOTE ]
How is this illogical? Seems like you have a deeply ingrained belief that there should be eternal justice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because eternal justice is logical to me.

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If your actions in life are totally insignificant then nothing is 'wrong' and nothing is 'right'

[/ QUOTE ]
Your actions are not insignificant, they have an effect on people in the here and now. If you're intelligent enough to understand this, and normal enough to care, then figuring out what's right and what's wrong isn't that hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

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If I am going to die one day, and you are going to die one day, and everyone here is going to die one day, and no afterlife exists, then all we have is this life.

If this life is all we have, and each of our time of expiration is unknown, then is it not logical to 'make the most of what we have' and not 'waste' our lives? (whether one wastes their life or not is subjective)

So how do we 'make the most of what we have'? Is it what we have been given OR what we have the potential to achieve?

We have laws which govern the daily relations between humans, the goal being a peaceful existence for every human as we are all equal. (I presume because of the common fact that we all were given 'life' and we all will 'die)

But these laws we witness are commonly broken. As members of a society, we give up various 'powers' (ie- the potential to regulate our fellow human beings when they wrong us by our own hands) as that power is entrusted to a justice system.

If we attempt to carry out that justice we are then in jeopardy of being judged by that justice system who can take away our liberty for a portion of our lives or even our life depending on what culture we are in and the laws that apply to it.

But who are the judges and what right do they have to deprive one of the only thing they have, their life?

Society is everywhere, there is no piece of land that is "free", everything is bought/sold and owned by somebody, and a human's liberty is from day one subject to following a certain set of rules, failure to do so can result in loss of liberty and or life.

Yet before birth, none of us signed a contract stating we would subject ourselves to these rules. There were no rules given beforehand, no choice in which we could accept or reject to enter the world, the choice was made for us, now we are here and again we seemingly have no choice but to live by the governance of our fellow humans.

As humans made the decision to bring us here, a different set make the decision to allow us to remain here, and under what circumstances?

Yet, every human has seemingly unlimited potential to obtain nearly every desire they may be able to think of, the only thing that stops them is themselves. (either by giving up this power to please the laws of society or a deity)

I cannot recall who said it (it may have been Marx) but it was something to the effect of 'If I raise a child to the age of seven they are mine for life'. Do not take the quote as if it were gospel (as its highly probable it's a misquote), but it makes a point since when we entered into this world from day one we have been 'programmed' by those who have raised us, on how we should act and comminicate in this world we have entered. (specifically, our culture/language/who we are/who is close to us/what we believe in etc.)

Ofcourse, the problem with the quote given above is that if one studies to 'enlgithen themselves' they can go back and begin to question the programming of their every belief they have 'ingrained' and challenge it to see if they agree with the encoder's (usually the parent) original message, whether they take a 'negotiated stance' (accept a part of it, reject another) or 'oppositional'. (total rejection) (this relates to Stuart Hall's work in Sociology FYI)

If humans are given no programming, what are they? Are they like animals, with merely desires? Is conscience a construct given to us by our parents or religion? Who is to say what is right and wrong?

This answer is not so simple I believe.

Therefore if we break away from parental/religious/societal programming, and if conscience is a contruct and right and wrong are not clearly defined, all we have is our life here and now and our desires ... what stops us from carrying them out, and why shouldn't we?

I don't have the answer, I only have questions.

But here's a question:

If this life is all we have and we are all designated to die at some point, then what is the logic of refraining from our desires though they may hurt fellow humans who are also designated to die and many of whom we hold in a lesser esteem than our family, which we are 'programmed' to "love"?

Cheers,
SDM

PS - What is "normal" and is this term culturally specific or universally applicable?

[Jim T]

[ QUOTE ]
"...to me that is illogical."

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 5 cars:

1. A sports car
2. An SUV
3. An economy car
4. A luxury car
5. A convertable

They are all involved in a crash which totals them beyond repair. They all end up in a scrapyard. What is illogical about that?

[ QUOTE ]
"If your actions in life are totally insignificant then nothing is 'wrong' and nothing is 'right'. "

[/ QUOTE ]

All that is really different is that you have to decide for yourself what is "right" and what is "wrong" instead of relying on what someone else believed thousands of years ago.

Get out of the kiddie pool. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. "

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]

There are 5 cars:

1. A sports car
2. An SUV
3. An economy car
4. A luxury car
5. A convertable

They are all involved in a crash which totals them beyond repair. They all end up in a scrapyard. What is illogical about that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Purpose of a car:

- Mode of transportation

Purpose of a human:

- ? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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All that is really different is that you have to decide for yourself what is "right" and what is "wrong" instead of relying on what someone else believed thousands of years ago.

Get out of the kiddie pool. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. "

[/ QUOTE ]

Good answer, but different people decide differently what is right and wrong and what matters and what doesn't.

What if one person decided that it was right to do whatever they wished considering quality of life was more important than quantity and it is better to enjoy a shorter life and risk running afoul of the law than to live a 'unguaranteed' longer life in observance with the law?

Would this person be wrong, or would this person be right? Is this train or thought logical, or illogical, and why?

Cheers,
SDM

[hurlyburly]

Purpose of a human:
Make more humans.

[ QUOTE ]
What if one person decided that it was right to do whatever they wished considering quality of life was more important than quantity and it is better to enjoy a shorter life and risk running afoul of the law than to live a 'unguaranteed' longer life in observance with the law?

[/ QUOTE ]

Humans are social, it's wired deeply. At some point early on, before our brains got so big, we realized that "together" was better than "alone", just because it reduced our individual chances of being eaten by bears.

Cultivate this over several thousand generations, "together" starts meaning a lot more as humans master the environment. "Alone" still isn't really feasible, but there's enough people and room that they can form up and go be "Alone together".

Add a few more thousand generations, and all the "Alone togethers" spawned more, still lots of space to go around, and being eaten by bears isn't as big of a threat.

Current time: "alone" is just as easy to achieve as "together", you can't even find a bear if you look real hard, there is no more space.

So no, that person is neither wrong nor illogical. He can't harm society, regardless of what he does individually. A fairly significant percentage of society lives this way now. It's called "college". [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Jim T]

[ QUOTE ]
Good answer, but different people decide differently what is right and wrong and what matters and what doesn't.

What if one person decided that it was right to do whatever they wished considering quality of life was more important than quantity and it is better to enjoy a shorter life and risk running afoul of the law than to live a 'unguaranteed' longer life in observance with the law?

Would this person be wrong, or would this person be right? Is this train or thought logical, or illogical, and why?

Cheers,
SDM

[/ QUOTE ]

These choices occur all the time. If there is a God, then these same choices would be there. So what is the purpose of God? To be the ultimate policeman, judge and/or enforcer? Sounds tedious.

Essentially, you are begging the question. You are saying that if there isn't a God, then there would be no purpose to life. Therefore, there must be a God. However, why must there be some grand Purpose?

I don't believe there is such a Purpose. I do believe there are many purposes though. A big one was given earlier: having babies.

Going back to your fears of general anarchy without a God (or, at least, FEAR of God), I find them extremely overblown. How many times in your life have you actually made a moral decision due to fear of burning in hell? Not very often, I would assume.

EVERY society in history, with a multitude of religions, have evolved rules of conduct. Clearly there are huge differences between various systems, but why has every group of humans always found a need to enact such rules?

It is because anarchy is terrible to live under. While it might be nice (in theory, at least) to be able take whatever material possession you wanted, bang any woman you saw who struck your fancy, kill anyone who displeased you, etc. ... this ignores the fact that everyone else you meet will be looking to steal YOUR possessions, rape your wife/daughter/sister/mother (or you), kill you, etc.

I am MUCH happier living under our more constrictive system of laws than living such a miserable "free" existence, thank you very much.

Finally, if you find the laws you were "born into" too oppressive, then you can work to change them or move somewhere else with rules that you believe to be better.

PS Christianity makes such concerns you express absurd anyway. Assuming Christianity is correct, the most vile person imaginable (if he's lucky enough to have the time before he dies to repent) can scoot right into heaven while the kindest, lifelong devout Christian you can think of could be struck by lightning while he's thinking, "God damn my neighbor's wife is hot" and be eternally damned to Hell before his body hits the ground.

As you noted, why waste your time being "good" when nothing really matters (but your "state of grace" at the time you die)? Eat, drink, and be merry to the fullest extent you can - just be ready to repent 2 seconds before you die.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Assuming Christianity is correct, the most vile person imaginable (if he's lucky enough to have the time before he dies to repent) can scoot right into heaven while the kindest, lifelong devout Christian you can think of could be struck by lightning while he's thinking, "God damn my neighbor's wife is hot" and be eternally damned to Hell before his body hits the ground.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you get this stuff?

[Jim T]

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Assuming Christianity is correct, the most vile person imaginable (if he's lucky enough to have the time before he dies to repent) can scoot right into heaven while the kindest, lifelong devout Christian you can think of could be struck by lightning while he's thinking, "God damn my neighbor's wife is hot" and be eternally damned to Hell before his body hits the ground.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you get this stuff?

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The Bible. Pretty ridiculous, isn't it?