should i just set him in? - Page 3

RubbleRobble · #21 11-14-2005, 02:01 PM

Whatever the probability that a shove is a bluff or not, I don't think you'd ever wanna call a like that at low limits. Wouldn't it just be better to wait for a better spot? If its a real flush, you get stacked. If its a bluff into a flush board, then they are probably stupid enough to pay you off later when you are more sure of yourself.

I agree with the post about the good showdown prize. Definitely take it.

And this talk about miniraises. Miniraises are for fish. I see neither logic nor merit in minraises. Don't do it please.

Thoughts on my thoughts?

yvesaint · #22 11-14-2005, 02:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

And this talk about miniraises. Miniraises are for fish. I see neither logic nor merit in minraises. Don't do it please.

[/ QUOTE ]

you dont see any value at all in raising this river? i raised turn, villain does not put me on a flush. you dont think set/2-pair will call a raise? say, villain turned 2-pair. he bets, i raise, he bets river, does he call my raise?

i personally think a mini-raise on the river nets me the most value. everyones talking about showdown value, but if villain pushes after my mini-raise, i'm going to assume he can read the board and knows ive shown aggression, and i can put him on a flush.

but what value do i get from flat calling? i still lose to a flush, yet im not getting any more value out of sets/2-pairs. you really think sets/2-pairs fold to a mini-raise?

the question here is, when he bets the river like that, how often does he have a set/2-pair, and how often does he have a flush. if set/2-pair is more common, a mini-raise gets me more value, but if a flush is more common, flat calling is best.

i dunno, just throwing some thoughts out. mini-raising post-flop has done me some good, you cant just see the word "mini-raise" and automatically assume "fish". this is not mini-raising from the BB pre-flop.

Ghazban · #23 11-14-2005, 02:09 PM

IMO, the minraise is only good if you are positive in what the correct reaction to a 3bet push is. Here, it sounds like you aren't, so don't reopen the betting.

GrunchCan · #24 11-14-2005, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Miniraises are for fish. [...] Don't do it please.[...]
Thoughts on my thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no always in poker. It's probably true that in almost every case a minraise at this game is wrong, but that doesn't mean it's 100% wrong. Don't dismiss a play outr of hand just becasue it's not on some list of "approved" plays. Consider the merits of the play instead.

In this case, I think the reason why the minraise is bad is becasue hero is behind a flush too often here. The opponent seemed to like the turn 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and either didn't (edit) dislike the river 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], or liked it even more. So what about the 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] did he like? The rank, or the suit? I think it's pretty likely that it's the suit, so I'll try to showdown as cheap as possible.

Mercman572 · #25 11-14-2005, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever the probability that a shove is a bluff or not, I don't think you'd ever wanna call a like that at low limits. Wouldn't it just be better to wait for a better spot? If its a real flush, you get stacked. If its a bluff into a flush board, then they are probably stupid enough to pay you off later when you are more sure of yourself.

I agree with the post about the good showdown prize. Definitely take it.

And this talk about miniraises. Miniraises are for fish. I see neither logic nor merit in minraises. Don't do it please.

Thoughts on my thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Minraises have their merits. As Ghaz points out, this may or may not be a good spot for one. Look for my post on "Merits of Minraising" Better players than me all seemed to agree that there are undoubtedly a time and place.

-Skeme- · #26 11-14-2005, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And this talk about miniraises. Miniraises are for fish. I see neither logic nor merit in minraises. Don't do it please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Negative. Again, I just think I call here. I'm too scared of a flush.

RubbleRobble · #27 11-14-2005, 02:42 PM

I think that the times when minraising is correct are rarities on par with royal flushes. I, like Cloutier, think it is a bad idea to vary your bet size in any major way. Fold, Check, half-pot, 2/3rds or 3/4ths pot, full pot, and shove are more than enough weapons to deal with low limit players. Not only does min raising present the problem of giving away more information, but it is about the worst strategic thing I think can be done at a table.

If villain has two pair, you can min raise him, and when he calls, which he probably would, you can collect your 8 extra BBs. The problem arises when people figure out that you make "value minraises." Would you minraise with the nuts? I hope not, as im sure you see that is not maximizing your profits. So obviously a minraise means you dont have the nuts, or even a probable winner, like in this instance, a flush.

That is WAY to much info to give away, because if anyone ever realizes what is going on, they will start shoving their stacks at you with worse hands! Not to mention when they actually have the nuts you lose that same 8BBs that you were tryin to win anyways. Are you willing to make a decision for 34BB in at the end of this particular hand? what if it was for 50BB? 75BB? thats 300 bucks.

All in all a minraise will win 8BB sometimes, but gives your opponents another chance to outplay you.

Clearly not worth it, minraises are almost always bad.

Finite_Risk · #28 11-14-2005, 02:50 PM

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I'm too scared of a flush.

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Personally, I'm as scared of KJ as a flush

He bets at the 9, calls big raise - dont think he's calling to draw to the flush - he leads out river for half pot or so (value bet?) I doubt he puts you on a flush here.

Understanding that this is 4 handed where I dont have much experience, I can't imagine leading the river on this board without having a hand that beats hero's. If I had 2 pr, I'm check calling a reasonable bet here

RubbleRobble · #29 11-14-2005, 02:58 PM

I agree.

dtbog · #30 11-14-2005, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (4 handed) internettexasholdem.com

SB ($198.60)
Hero ($1293.35)
UTG ($412.95)
Button ($1371.95)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $4, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($12) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

Turn: ($12) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets $8, Hero raises to $24, UTG folds, SB calls $16.

River: ($60) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $32

typical short stack donk, should i just put him in here? hes got like 140 left on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been making pushes like this lately with pretty good results.

He will have a flush some % of the time, he will fold a set some % of the time... but I've gotten a LOT of calls lately from people who don't believe me because 'an overbet looks like a bluff'.

Short-stack donks are the best for this... "haha! he is bluffing the flush, but I'm not that stupid! I call! I don't even have a full stack! mwhahahaah!!"

So I push.