Wild 66 Hand

[Softrock]

40-80 full game. Pretty typical Northern California game of mostly decent players with a tendency of some to be a little too loose and a little too aggressive. UTG, the weakest player at the table, limps. Second UTG limps (he's way too loose, might limp with just about anything). I'm next and see a good chance at a multi-way pot and limp with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Player to my immediate left who is probably the most solid player at the table and plays me with alot of respect knowing that I'm pretty conservative with my hand selection raises. Cutoff and button both call two cold, SB folds and BB calls. Seven of us to the flop with 15 small bets.

My close to dream flop appears - J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Checked to me, I bet, solid player to my left raises - at that point I'm virtually certain he has an overpair. Next player 3-bets - now the reading gets tougher. I think this is most likely a flush draw, good chance it's the nut flush draw. However, this is a rather creative player who does some unorthodox things (not bad plays but he likes to keep people off balance - he could even make this play with QT, would he call two BTF with QT? Well, maybe if it was suited). Button calls three cold - oh [censored] where the hell am I at? BB and one early limper fold, guy on my right calls, and it's two bets back to me. Frankly, I was still reasonalbly sure I was in the lead but aware that if I wasn't I was drawing to one out - I capped it. Here's where it gets interesting. The player to my left contemplates for awhile and folds. Let me digress and ask my first question - this guy had pocket Aces. He says he was alomost certain that I had 66, he didn't have the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and figured he had one out and was still vulnerable to a flush. Frankly, I think this is a great laydown and one I doubt I could make - this huge pot, I'd just have to see the turn card and hope for an Ace. Is this a great laydown or one that a good player should make routinely?

Second question, anyone not cap here?

Well, I didn't like the turn card - 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I now figure I now need the board to pair and it suddenly dawns on me that one of my oppoonents might have J9 which really means I'm drawing thin. Checked to me and I check. Is this too weak? Should I bet to prevent a lone spade from staying in and risk being raised by the made flush when I have to see the river?

I'll take feedback on the questions so far and post the remainder of the hand later.

[worm33]

Ok first of all I would definitly have checked the flop with the pre-flop raiser whos raising hands here are probably pretty limited after it goes limp limp limp first 3 guys in including yourself raises. Unless hes the type to check a totaly missed ak or aq here (not having a spade) then check and have an absoulte certain chance of checkraising the field. But the way you played it obviously worked out since you got 4 bets in 5 ways or whatever. On the turn I lead 100% of the time, for the sole purpose that I dont want to have to call 2 or 3 cold when it comes back to me, cuz you CANT fold. And probably something like 30% of the time you still have the best hand. And your hand is disguised a little teeny bit and someone might not raise you with a 8 high flush thinking you capped the flop with the nut flush draw. I think its a clear bet on the turn.

[mplspoker]

check raising the flop is a bad idea - this flop has draws and people will raise it. check raising will almost always end with a smaller pot size.... turn is an easy bet and easy call down without improvement.

[worm33]

When you bet the flop you encourage people to fold hands that are drawing dead to yours (lone overcards and underpairs) when the pre-flop raiser raises and confronts the field with 2 bets. checkraise the flop 100% of the time if your certain hes going to bet (ie. holding his 4 chips in his hand)

[Softrock]

I didn't check-raise the flop - I bet out. Given the action and the pot size, there was no way any decent draw was getting out and the goal was to make them pay the highest price possible.

The turn is an easy bet because...? I should not fear a flush? I'm not sure that checking the turn was correct but it sure doesn't seem easy or obvious to me. I keep thinking of the Mson Malmuth dictum (at least I think it comes from him) that when facing what could be a made hand you should check if you have outs and bet if you don't. The reason being if you have outs you don't want to have to pay multiple bets to draw to them. Not sure this specifically applies here but was part of my thinking - ie. good chance I'm beat but I have outs and now I don't want to be charged the maximum to draw.

[Softrock]

I disagree - when there's this much money in the pot, anyone who has something live (ie. even an under pair) is probably calling the flop. Those that missed completely are probably folding for one bet - so I'd just as soon have the callers call 2 since I believe there's not anyone likely to call one but not two (again remember the preflop action and the size of the pot).

[elysium]

hi soft

you can not bet the turn since you capped it and can not represent the nuts when the draw completes. it will be too apparent that you are betting to make the draws pay, and it's way too likely that the turn produced a flush. you must never ever bet the turn in this spot. check and call. as far as the flop cap, that's fine. you really must cap it. but you need to be very aware that once a spade hits the board, you need to improve on the river. there isn't a spade in the deck that won't put you behind on the turn. once it lands, you must improve or fold the river unless your call closes. it's that bad.

never, ever bet the turn in this spot.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
The player to my left contemplates for awhile and folds. Let me digress and ask my first question - this guy had pocket Aces. He says he was alomost certain that I had 66,

[/ QUOTE ]

If this guy can make that kind of laydown, I'd be highly impressed, but with all the action around him, it does look like even if he has the best hand now, it doesn't look like he'll have it by the end. Like you said, he doesn't have the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] to back him up and he puts you on a set. God Bless him. An alternate line would be to instead of capping on the flop, wait for a safe card to fall on the turn and check-raise/lead again. But with so few safe cards, capping on the flop when you're 99.9% sure your hand is good is still a good move.

Lead the turn and call a raise, and call down without improvement. It's still possible that no one has 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]s in their hand and you'd hate to have a set checked through in case your hand is still good.

Garland

[joker122]

If he check calls the turn, and especially since he only check calls, why is it wrong to call a bet on a non improving river getting tremendous odds?

[JasonP530]

I dont see how you can ever lay down that set of sixes, unless you get raised on the turn and the river is another spade. You dont make money by making laydowns in enormous pots. I would definately lead the turn. Theres so many bets in the pot, that if noone has the flush even 10% of the time, youre bet was good. If you get raised, its not great, but you were going to draw anyway in this big pot. if you are capping in the that spot on the flop with a hand like Ax suited, with a backdoor straight draw, or KTs, people may believe that you have a flush on the turn(BTW, that is a very good value cap on flop with a flush draw, esp if the preflop raiser has KK, and your ace outs are good). You said the game was loose agressive, dont start laying down big hands in big pots.