$10-$20, half-kill in a large pot (7 players)

Dante · #1 07-07-2004, 01:38 PM

The cast of characters in this $10-$20 game includes 3 other solid players, about 5 too-loose-ish players (4 of which are very passive), and 1 ok-ish player. Typical pots were 3-5 players for 1-2 bets and an early limper or would set off a limp-fest.

It was funny, one of my friends came with tonight for his first time at Hold Em in a casino (he played $3-$6) and on the way over, he told me that he had read just last week for the first time about pot odds and odds to make your draws, etc. I told him in the loose $3-$6, to count the odds carefully, because he might have odds to call a gutshot, especially if the pot was raised.....

This hand is a half-kill about 2 hours into the session (the small blind had the $15 posted)

Pre Flop: The first 3 players limp to me (see what I mean) I look down at 4h4s and call. Ok-ish player to my immediate left raises to $30 in a nervous/anxious “I have a good hand in a kill pot” kind of way. Both blinds call. Two players from the $3-$6 game call. Three players from Harrah’s down the street call. 7 players to the flop in a 14 sb pot.

Flop: Ah 3d 5s

small blind bets, call, call, call, call, I call, pre-flop raiser (PFR) raises, all call.

The small blind is the type of player who would lead out with a 3 or 5 hoping someone with a draw would raise out the PFR. Even if the PFR raises behind me, if everyone calls, which they would at this point, I would be getting 26-2 odds, more than enough to call for my gutshot. Also, I wasn’t sure my set outs were tainted yet, so I figure those “2” outs were really about 0.75 or 1 out.

I also wasn’t concerned about anyone 3 betting. The SB is someone who would 3bet with a good hand, but usually only against the LAG-type players, which the PFR is not. The 4 players I wasn’t concerned about call-re-raising at all. Seven players to the turn for 14 big bets.

Turn: 9c

Everyone checks to me.

What would you do and why? Comments on the flop play? If it makes any difference, I was 99% sure the PRF had AA or AK and would raise me 100% of the time I bet the turn.

River and results later..

SpaceAce · #2 07-07-2004, 01:58 PM

Well, you're almost certainly behind someone with that many people still in the hand. With all that money in the pot, you're not winning with a bet against anyone who can beat 44. I think you're simply going to have to improve to win this pot so I would check it through.

As for the pre-flop raiser having AA or AK and raising you if you bet, why give him the chance? Who are you hoping he'll push out? You don't have any overcard outs to clear up and you'll basically be charging yourself two bets to draw to 4.5 - 5 outs. I don't see a bet here helping in any way to maximize your chances of winning the pot.

SpaceAce

Dante · #3 07-07-2004, 02:06 PM

no, neither did I....I checked.

elysium · #4 07-07-2004, 04:03 PM

hi dante
fold on the flop. it looks like a set against another made hand. it looks like it will be expensive to see the river. another reason for folding is that your hand can't get a whole lot better. it's called a 'mirage'. there isn't a card coming out of the deck that won't hurt you. even heads-up, showing strength with these hands requires that there be a strong possibility of getting the fold. rarely are these bet for value, but there are some rare short-handed circumstances. this isn't one of them.

Dante · #5 07-07-2004, 04:25 PM

perhaps I wasn't clear, but I wasn't looking at this hand from the perspective of thinking my hand was good or would win without improving.

My thought process was clear to me - I need to improve to win, mostly with my gutshot 2 outs. I was getting at least 12-1 on all my flop calls.

The only person I would put on a set in this hand would be the PFR for a set of Aces, which is only about 33% chance vs him having AK.

Dante · #6 07-07-2004, 04:40 PM

....the turn was checked to me. I check, PFR bets, SB calls, 2 or 3 of the other 4 players call, I call to close the action getting 18 or 19-1 on my call.

River is the 2d making the board:

[Ah 3d 5s 9c] 2d

and giving me the Wheel. It's checked to me. I bet, PFR practically falls over, but calls in that "I know you just rivered me" way, 2 others call. I flip it over and my hand is good. PFR slams his cards down and goes for a walk. His cards kind of flip up and the person next to me sees AK (I doubt that AK was even in second place).

The table has a rustle to it that I just dragged a 23-24 BB pot (on a half kill, about $690ish) with a gutshot the whole way.

I guess what I'd really like comments on is the fact that I was getting proper odds for my call ASSUMING 4 outs that were clean, but was that a good assumption (obviously in hindsight in this particular case, yes)?

pudley4 · #7 07-07-2004, 04:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
....the turn was checked to me. I check, PFR bets, SB calls, 2 or 3 of the other 4 players call, I call to close the action getting 18 or 19-1 on my call.

River is the 2d making the board:

[Ah 3d 5s 9c] 2d

and giving me the Wheel. It's checked to me. I bet, PFR practically falls over, but calls in that "I know you just rivered me" way, 2 others call. I flip it over and my hand is good. PFR slams his cards down and goes for a walk. His cards kind of flip up and the person next to me sees AK (I doubt that AK was even in second place).

The table has a rustle to it that I just dragged a 23-24 BB pot (on a half kill, about $690ish) with a gutshot the whole way.

I guess what I'd really like comments on is the fact that I was getting proper odds for my call ASSUMING 4 outs that were clean, but was that a good assumption (obviously in hindsight in this particular case, yes)?

[/ QUOTE ]

That assumption is fine. Your two 4's may have been outs too.