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#21
10-06-2005, 09:23 AM
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Re: I fold JJ pf
I've never been faced with this situation. Up til a few weeks ago I would have said it's an easy call. But recently i've realized that I have to think about odds pre-flop as well as post-flop. Here, IF everyone else calls(who are already in), you are getting 4-1 on the cap call. If we are playing for set value, they only hit about 8-1(right?). If you hit the set, you have to be VERY worried if A,K,Q show as well. Then what?
To me now, this is a fold. Am I crazy? 
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#22
10-06-2005, 09:41 AM
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Re: I fold JJ pf
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It's easy to get away from, that's what is so beautiful about this situation. We're only playing for the set or we muck. [/ QUOTE ] Easy if the flop comes AQ5, but what about 832 rainbow, are you folding to a bet? [/ QUOTE ] Thats the great thing about having absolute position over the whole field. Of course if there is action to us we want a cheap showdown, AA vs KK is rare. We call 1 or 2 on the flop and go from there. But yeah i think its by far the hardest flop to play. With an A/K and heavy action we are out, with a J we are in. Its the 255 flop that kills us and we need reads for. I still say just try to find the cheapest showdown possible if people are betting at you, raising accomplishing nothing but spewage at any time postflop.
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#23
10-06-2005, 10:33 AM
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Re: I fold JJ pf
I'd fold this one too unless perhaps I as sure that there were two maniacs in the hand or two of the guys were tilting away at each other (sometimes happens that two people at a table just raise and raise each other whenever they are in the same hand). The only flop I'd like to see is the one where I make a set, and I'd still be worried if an A,K or Q turns up on the board.
The odds for the J coming is like 1:9 so we have to make 9*4 SB to make it a profit. So the other guys should add another (9-3)*4 SB=12 BB by the time we get to the river. This me thinks is unlikely.
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#24
10-06-2005, 10:35 AM
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Re: I fold JJ pf
I ran into a similar situation in my home tourney last month. First hand so we're all tied at 1500. UTG (who limps all his hands, including monsters) limps, 1 fold, next guy raises the minimum, 1 call, I call on the button with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], bb calls, 650 in pot at this point and UTG limp re-raises to 300 and right there I knew his hand. I was 100% sure it was AA or KK. The original raiser calls, next guy calls, 1500 in pot now and I'm faced with 300 more. so I call and BB calls.
2100 in pot for the flop. I know tourneys are supposed to be tighter, but isn't this a huge implied odds situation?
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#25
10-06-2005, 10:37 AM
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Re: I fold JJ pf
[ QUOTE ]
1. The set potential. After all, is coldcalling a cap with JJ against 4 players really that different from coldcalling a single raise with 55 if there's 5-6 players already in? [/ QUOTE ] Um, yes.
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#26
10-06-2005, 10:39 AM
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Re: I fold JJ pf
If NL, then I would definitely say yes.
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#27
10-06-2005, 10:41 AM
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Re: I fold JJ pf
[ QUOTE ]
I ran into a similar situation in my home tourney last month. First hand so we're all tied at 1500. UTG (who limps all his hands, including monsters) limps, 1 fold, next guy raises the minimum, 1 call, I call on the button with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], bb calls, 650 in pot at this point and UTG limp re-raises to 300 and right there I knew his hand. I was 100% sure it was AA or KK. The original raiser calls, next guy calls, 1500 in pot now and I'm faced with 300 more. so I call and BB calls. 2100 in pot for the flop. I know tourneys are supposed to be tighter, but isn't this a huge implied odds situation? [/ QUOTE ] Haha, in NL I muck that super quick if I have a raise and a reraise in front of me 
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#29
10-06-2005, 11:34 AM
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Re: I fold JJ pf
[ QUOTE ]
UTG (TAG), UTG+1 (unknown), UTG+2 (unknown) [/ QUOTE ] I can't believe that everybody's advocating a fold, here. droolie's reads should be solid, or he wouldn't have put 'em up, so we can establish a preflop hand range for UTG...which range has to include such hands as TT/99/KQs/KJs/etc. We don't know what the other two might be holding, since they're unknown, so we have to base our read on the standard player for the limit. Since he posted this in micros, I think we can assume that we're up against Party .5/1 or 1/2 dumbasses, and they could be playing middle suited connectors, low pps, A9o, or maybe UTG+2 has a hardon for UTG+1 because he made fun of him for taking 65o to the river 47 hands ago. We don't know. I play this both for set value and because I might be ahead at this point. (How does it change your opinion if UTG folds to the cap and then it's checked to you on a low flop?) I do not play 22-77 in the same case, as the chances that I'll be ahead at the end of the hand, assuming I'm ahead preflop, are much lower. 88-TT, it depends on what I had for breakfast.
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#30
10-06-2005, 12:07 PM
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Re: I fold JJ pf
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It's easy to get away from, that's what is so beautiful about this situation. We're only playing for the set or we muck. [/ QUOTE ] Easy if the flop comes AQ5, but what about 832 rainbow, are you folding to a bet? [/ QUOTE ] No. We'd be getting odds on the flop for our set.
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