A Gorie Hand

zephed · #1 11-26-2005, 11:01 AM

UTG+1 is a TAG.
MP2 is loose and a little weird postflop. I think very weak, checked a flopped set of queens on the turn for no good reason after c/r flop.
MP3 is semiloose and passive.
CO is 50%/8% and passive postflop.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

I don't ever 3-bet this out of the blinds. Is this narginally bad? Horrible? OK?

I don't like it.

Flop: (15.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls.

We are almost getting correct odds to draw to our set.

Turn: (9.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

I think hero should fold here.

River: (12.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

mxer7734 · #2 11-26-2005, 11:56 AM

Yes that was an ugly hand. If you say UTG+1 is a TAG why are you 3-betting PF with 88? His range of hands is probably AA-TT, AK, AQ, AJs of which you are only a slight favorite over a few of them and a huge dog against the rest. Call PF, Check/Fold flop. Chasing sets after the flop can turn into a huge leak if you don't stop it soon. Because once you hit you will expect to hit all the time and will ALWAYS call a bet on the flop no matter your odds. Calling the turn is just plain spewing.

FlopMe · #3 11-26-2005, 11:59 AM

I would just call preflop. Since UTG+1 is a TAG, he's raising with a strong hand here and there are 3 other players in this pot.

I just check-fold the flop because of the ace and queen showing up.

#4 11-26-2005, 12:00 PM

I would not 3bet this preflop...Would you want to see UTG cap this?? Plus a 3bet isnt going to scare anyone away...
On the flop pot odds are 18.5 to 1 and with two outs to your set your odds are 22.5 to 1...but you can expect to win a few more bets if we hit our set on the turn, so I am not sure if its correct but I dont think calling the flop bet is a major error, but I def fold this turn....

Hades18

bozlax · #5 11-26-2005, 12:41 PM

The worst part of this hand is the 3-bet preflop against an EP TAG. You get capped, you're hosed. He just calls, maybe you've scared his QQ/TT/JJ. Either way, not g00t.

Second worst part of this hand is the flop call. The only reason you're even close to the proper pot odds to call for your set (although you probably are close enough to peel one) is because of your spewey 3-bet preflop. Don't do that and it's much easier to check-fold this flop.

#6 11-26-2005, 12:56 PM

PreFlop - I'm not a big fan of 3betting preflop. For me its a solid hand to call due to the multiple limpers. On the flop you will very likely be looking at a board with no trips (for you) and at least one overcard. You'd be forced to slow down and I think you will need to followup the preflop 3bet with some aggression. However, 88 usually will not be so attractive after the flop.

Flop I'm out - based on the opponents preflop raise and the willingness of the 2 others to call the bet on the flop makes an overpair very likely.

Turn As played - I'm out to the bet. You're drawing to 2 outs - 1 to 22 and the pot is 1 to 8ish

Aaron W. · #7 11-26-2005, 01:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The worst part of this hand is the 3-bet preflop against an EP TAG. You get capped, you're hosed. He just calls, maybe you've scared his QQ/TT/JJ. Either way, not g00t.

Second worst part of this hand is the flop call. The only reason you're even close to the proper pot odds to call for your set (although you probably are close enough to peel one) is because of your spewey 3-bet preflop. Don't do that and it's much easier to check-fold this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your analysis for the second worst play is way off. You're criticizing hero for making the proper play on the flop? Yes, a previous error put him in this spot, but calling is clearly correct.

xLukex · #8 11-26-2005, 01:52 PM

Isn't there a section in SSHE about building huge pots preflop with medium pairs for when you hit your set? If 6+ people limped to me in the BB and I had 88 I would raise it up.

Yeah, UTG+1 raised and 3 people cold-called. If 1 or 2 more people cold-called, I think it might be +EV to throw in a 3rd bet here JUST for set value.

But yeah, flop call is alright with implied odds. Turn call is bad bad bad bad bad.

Aaron W. · #9 11-26-2005, 02:03 PM

The 3-bet isn't miserable. You can make the argument that you're making a massively bloated pot to win when you catch your set. However, look at your relative position to the preflop raiser. If you catch your set, you're in perfect check-raising position to trap the entire field in for a couple bets. TAG may not always auto-bet the flop for you, but I would expect him to do so most of the time.

When would you rather bloat the pot? Before you hit your set or after?

(Note that this argument does not apply if the pot were a limped pot. In that case, the purpose for possibly raising is completely different.)

#10 11-26-2005, 03:11 PM

grunch:

If UTG+1 is a TAG it's debatable whether I'd raise this pre-flop, but with all the cold calls I like the play here. With UTG+1 just calling, I'd put him on two over cards or JJ-TT.

Flop: check was good. calling here is marginal. Pot is big but you're not quite getting the odds to see another card. You 22:1 to see an 8 on the next card and without improvement I'd fold the turn to any raise.