Horrible play and an expensive reminder

[DonHansen]

Oh, come on! The guy is asking for advice - which is what the forums are for. No need to make him feel stupid.

Twang: The gap-concept was introduced by David Sklansky in "The Theory of Poker" and states that you need a better hand to call (or raise) an opened pot than you need to open a pot. In this situation with a raised and reraised pot your AQs is a borderline hand. Against strong players at a tight table it's almost a mandatory fold behind a raise and reraise - unless your postflop play is top notch.

The gap-concept is also well explained in Dan Harringtons brilliant book "Harrington On Hold'em vol I."


D.

[ansky451]

PF I dont mind the call, but I'd rather be in a heads up pot and push to isolate. On the flop... fold. Gutshot with the 2 diamonds up is baaaaad.

[twang]

Hey Don, no need to defend my case, but thanks anyway.

Actually, the main reason for posting that awful hand was that it was fine illustration of neglection of a couple of basic NL-concepts: the gamble with my big stack and TPTK on a drawy board + aggression; not looking at your opponents possible range of hands; not reraising the all-in. And while I'm at it: not applying the gap concept. I'm very well aware of what gap means, but I (obviously) didn't apply it in this hand.

Well, these boards are for learning and the intention of my post was to show off a butchered hand for (not exclusively my own) learning purposes.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure laying down AQs preflop here is good play.

The most likely range of hands that villain has (given the table and his preflop actions) is AA-JJ and AK, all to which I am behind on the flop. AQ-AT is not entirely unlikely either and they are also pretty bad for me. Ok, the flop wasn't swell, but villain's bet laid me 4 to 1 to call to chase the gutshot straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you say that you are not sure laying down AQs there is a good idea, then you post what you think his range is, most of which have you dominated. On the flop, you are not ahead to a single one of his hands (JJ hits a set, QQ-AA have an overpair to the flop and have you drawing dead, AK has you drawing dead to 3 outs (the other kings). Add TT to his range, and you are behind yet another hand.

So let's say you have 3 outs at most, maybe even 2 or 1 possibly, you would need about 8 to 1 to call there. Even with 4 outs, you need about 6 to 1. You are not getting near the odds you need on the flop, which is a flop you should have never seen with your hand in the first place if you trust your reads a single bit.

[2005]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, the flop wasn't swell, but villain's bet laid me 4 to 1 to call to chase the gutshot straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think your A and Q are not viable outs, then you are not getting enough odds to call, especially if you don't think you can get away from the hand if you pick up one of your tainted outs. I think this is a fold on the flop(if you see it)

[JustPlayingSmart]

I think everything is fine up until the flop call. This is a terrible flop for you. The only card that is good on the turn is a king, though an ace is probably a decent card. On the turn, when the Q comes, you beat no legitimate hands. TT-AA, AK all have you beat badly.

If I played the hand I would probably repop it to about 6,000 preflop. Then if UTG came over the top I'd have a decision to make. You'd be getting 2-1 to call, so I'd probably call anyway, but I definitely wouldn't like it.

AQ is just a terrible hand against a pf raise in so many ways. I don't call raises with it and I don't even raise with it, unless I am in SB/BB and no one has shown strength pf.

Against a pf raise, suppose you call with with AQ. Flop is 9,Q,7 or K,Q,T or K,6,Q. UTG raises. What do you do? See what I mean? It's just a problem hand.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
AQ is just a terrible hand against a pf raise in so many ways. I don't call raises with it and I don't even raise with it, unless I am in SB/BB and no one has shown strength pf.

Against a pf raise, suppose you call with with AQ. Flop is 9,Q,7 or K,Q,T or K,6,Q. UTG raises. What do you do? See what I mean? It's just a problem hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, THAT'S some weak-tight thinking.
However, I agree with all who said that this hand was butchered entirely.

[Shammu]

In my opinion, the flop call is the worst thing I've seen. Either check-raise or check-fold( In my case fold). I also don't like the pre flop action, you were not invested in that hand and I don't know why you called that. I once layed down QQ from that spot after a raise and re-raise, I was sure one of them had AA or KK and I was right.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After the second raise from UTG, laying them down would've been the only play. What do you think he's re-raising with?

[/ QUOTE ]
The pot gives me a bit over 3 to 1. I'm still not sure how folding here could be the only play.

[/ QUOTE ]

A decent player will give you 3 to 1 in this spot knowing he's giving you 3 to 1. He isn't trying to isolate the short stack; he's trying to draw you in. Danger, Will Robinson!
What kind of range does an UTG raiser and re-raiser have? At his LOOSEST it's probably TT-AA, AK. (MAYBE AQs. I think it's more likely QQ-AA and AK, but I bet even AK pushes to isolate.) This is probably AA or KK if your opponent is of any skill whatsoever.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop (pot 14,500): Tc 4d Jd
Hero checks, UTG bets 5,000. Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

This call is atrocious. You are 11 to 1 to catch a gutshot on the next card (and one of your outs makes a flush, so you're about 14 to 1 to catch the winner clean) and you will surely be facing another bet if you don't. In addition, there is not a single hand in the AA-TT, AK range that you are beating right now.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn (pot 24,500): Qs
Hero checks, UTG bets 10,000. Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no WAY your hand is good here! Every possible holding of villain beats you, and you're only drawing live if he has AA and you can catch one of the last two queens.

All the information was available to you every step of the way to tell you you were badly beaten, and you ignored it all and let your hand improve into a second-best hand you couldn't fold.

I'm sure you've gotten hammered enough already for this one but I wanted to articulate why I felt the way I did about the hand.