QJo, top pair, wait for turn to raise?

[belloc]

I'm playing in a pretty decent 8/16 game at Casino Arizona while visiting family here in Phoenix; it's my first time here at this casino. A few players seemed at first to know their way around, and the table (which started as a new table) started pretty tight, but after a while it becomes clear that it's just a typical SSH game.

Reads: SB is TAP, BB is sLAGgish (loves to bet out when first to act, even when it's into a raiser), MP1 is LPP, MP2 is LPP.

I have QJo in the CO at a 7-handed table while a few players are sitting out. There are two limpers to me, I call, button folds, SB completes, BB checks. Five to the flop for one bet each, 5 SB.

Flop: Q 8 5 rainbow

BB bets, both MP players call, I call, SB folds. Four to the turn, 4.5 BB.

Turn: 3

BB bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, I raise, both call. Pot is 10.5 BB.

River: A

Checked to me.


Was this an appropriate time to control the pot size by waiting for the turn, or did I miss value by not raising the flop? What do I do now that the overcard river is checked to me?

[QTip]

I like just raising the flop while everyone is in. This board is quite raggy, so we don't have a lot to worry about in the area of scare cards.

[private joker]

Yeah I think you can raise this flop for value. As you played it, I think you can check the river. KQ is the only better Q, and no A or 2-pair hand is folding. Worse Qs might not even call a bet, so I see little value in it.

[istewart]

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KQ is the only better Q

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Isn't this an argument for betting?

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no A or 2-pair hand is folding

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wtf?

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Worse Qs might not even call a bet

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I fail to see why this would be true.

[silkyslim]

Fuckng raisaew thr [censored] flip bitches

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Fuckng raisaew thr [censored] flip bitches

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[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
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KQ is the only better Q

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Isn't this an argument for betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It's an argument for checking. KQ is the only holding villain can have where betting might get a better hand to fold -- whereas with any other holding he will probably fold the hands Brian beats and call with hands that beat Brian.

[ QUOTE ]
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no A or 2-pair hand is folding

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wtf?

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No ace or 2-pair hand is folding. You can't be that illiterate, can you? (Hint: a pair of aces beats a pair of queens in poker hand rankings. Two pair beats one pair..

[ QUOTE ]
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Worse Qs might not even call a bet

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I fail to see why this would be true.

[/ QUOTE ]

They have second pair with a bad kicker. Brian raised the turn. They failed to improve on the river to trips or 2 pair. They want to save money and fold because they have the worst hand. Is it so inconceivable that a player *might* fold second pair with a bad kicker? (Of course some players will call, but not all of them). Have you ever played limit holdem? In a live setting?

[belloc]

So, here's why I thought the hand was interesting. It's very likely that the turn bet will be coming from my left because BB is betting until he's raised, and even then he still likes to bet. If SB hit any of the flop he'll play, but he's a "fit or fold" type, so he folds most flops, and it's most likely that he missed.

Since a raise isn't folding anybody out that wouldn't be folding anyway, a raise on the flop is for value. But the question is, is there more value in raising the turn? This board is as drawless as they come, and I'm likely way ahead. I would have heard from AQ (and maybe KQ) preflop, and two pair on the flop would have raised the BB or 3-bet me. So I'm only behind to a slowplaying set, and those behind me have at most five outs.

So with BB firing again at the turn, I think I can trap either one or both of the MP players with a turn bet, which I think gives me more value than raising the flop. If I raise the flop, I think the MP players won't pay on the turn.

On the end, I plan to bet any non overcard, and to be a little worried if the board pairs the 8 (I figure there are a few middle pairs out there). I did end up checking behind, and mhwg.

In my experience this kind of situation happens a lot during a session, and it seems to me there are lots of bets worth of value in playing them consistently well.