10-20 BB turn check-raise to get heads-up

[elysium]

this hand occurred the other night in a good loose 10-20.
most of the opponents were average to solid, with no one getting too far out of line. the button and UTG were both good with the button being good/solid.

the UTG limps, it's folded to the button who calls, and i knuckle from the BB with Ac8d.

the flop comes 864 all clubs. i check, the UTG checks, and the button bets. call, call.

turn; 8d. i check, UTG checks, and the button bets. here's the thing. i strongly suspect that the button has a flush already. i glance left and the UTG with overs or an over pair is ready to call. can he have a medium flush? yes. but i have trips and the nut flush draw. do i want the over-call by the UTG? i stopped momentarily to consider the situation, and i raised to raise out the UTG. i figured that whatever happens, i'll be calling on the river and i wanted my call to close the action. if a high card hit completing the flush, i didn't want to be trapped between two raisers. the UTG could check-raise, etc. i just wanted to be able to call on the river and have that call close the action. but was i correct to risk getting reraised by check-raising the turn to drive out the UTG who did fold? should i have kept him in and gotten his certain over-call? i felt that if the button had a flush that a reraise was highly unlikely, but he may have had a full-house at that point. was my turn check-raise correct for the reason i check-raised? how would you have played it any differently?

[Clarkmeister]

Why does the possibility that you are ahead never enter into the decision matrix?

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]
Why does the possibility that you are ahead never enter into the decision matrix?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much what I was thinking. I'd have bet/three-bet the flop with vigor against two opponents. Hell, I'd do it against nine opponents.

I think the mistake in this hand was made on the flop, but given that you check-called the flop, I'd try to get a few extra bets in on the turn. Unless your opponents are full (and I doubt they are) or are very agressive with large made flushes, I cannot see more than two bets going into the pot on the turn from each player. Even if you are behind (which I doubt), you have a huge double-redraw. (flush and full house) I think the best way to get more bets into the pot on the turn is to checkraise. Then I'd bet the river no matter what comes off, if I was not three-bet.

-Diplomat

[Dynasty]

Even worse, if he is behind to a flush, the last thing he wants to do if fold out the third player in the hand. It's far better to put one bet in on the turn against two opponents rather than putting two bets in against one opponent.

He put UTG on an overpair (despite no pre-flop raise) or overcards. The overcards are drawing dead. The overpair is drawing to two outs. If the overpair contains a club, then elysium can't make his flush while UTG makes a full house. There's no way you want to fold UTG out with either of those hands or a singleton club.

[Diplomat]

If both players called the checkraise, how do you play the river if a blank comes off?

-Diplomat

[elysium]

hi dynasty
the turn should read 8h. all i really remember is that its color contrasted on the club board, and the color of my 8 also contrasted. i had a red 8 and the turn produced another surprisingly red 8. whatever it was, it sure wasn't the 8s. i just want everyone to know that the dang 8 color clashed; it was beatnik.

crazy 8.

did someone ask if i thought i might have the lead at that point? yes; i thought i might have.

you'll have to remember that these are two very solid opponents, and the UTG is very capable of going for a pre-flop limp reraise, but would never raise-in from UTG with JJ or less, so in this case, 99 can be an over-pair.

the main problem with this hand are the two excellent opponents. clearly, a card that doesn't help me may come off on the river. any J thru 9 that may give the UTG his boat, will almost certainly be checked by him. if i only call on the turn, the button will read that as a non-flush hand and put me on trips, and that brings up another factor. my turn call is screaming trips. both of my opponents know exactly what i have, and they both know that i have a good idea about what they have. so, if the UTG fills on the river, he will check knowing for a fact that the button will bet and i'll call. and yes, i do think that the safest course of action is to call on the turn and get the safe over-call from the UTG if the hand ended on that round. but with another round to go, i don't like the prospect of the UTG betting out on the river.

with just an over-pair, on the river the UTG may bet out anyway when the fourth flush card fails to materialize. why? well, this is a very good player. he may also fear getting trapped on the river between two raisers. a sudden reversal by the UTG as a value bet/ raise stopper, is very possible. these are solid/ aggressives who think a lot. if they were ma and pa kettle, i wouldn't be so river wary.

my thinking is that i have the likely leader, but i'm not a heavy favorite. my holding wants to take down the pot without all the thrills. i'll take the pot anyway i can get it. i'm not really concerned about the safety of getting the over-call from the UTG. i want the UTG out, and if the button will fold when i raise that's fine with me. i want this thing over now, on the turn. and i don't want to be you know whatcked with on the river. i want my call on my river to be final. i also do not want my opponents to have such a good read on my holding. if it pleases the kind sirs, i want to be checked to on my river. and i'm buying the river right now on the turn. i raise. before my opponents make another move, they must first seek my approval. i raise.

my river; As. bet, call; end of story.

[Diplomat]

Stories that end up with full houses are always nice. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Still, my question stands; what if both called you on the turn and no help came on the river?

[elysium]

hi diplomat
if both called me on the turn and i didn't improve on the river, if a high card came off i would check it down if checked to and fold rather than calling 2BB cold unless my call closed the action.

if a lower card came off, i would bet if checked to since i hold the A of suit, and call if bet into. if it were 2BB cold to me, i would again only call if my call closed the action. i would not bet out into my opponents trying to quell a raise because i like the prospects of a free-showdown on the river which is another good reason to check-raise the turn. also notice that i do not need to bet the river to stop a bluff raise. the turn check-raise has covered that cost too. i can check and call with greater surety even if the UTG checks to the button who then bets. my turn check-raise allows me to call the button more confidently.

[rigoletto]

I would be most worried about the 8d being in your hand AND on the board!

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I would be most worried about the 8d being in your hand AND on the board!

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, you are just opening yourself up to all kinds of reading comprehension jokes. I won't make any. I'll just let you make a self-depricating retraction.