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#1
11-18-2005, 11:53 AM
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Re: AQ SB Hand
[ QUOTE ]
What would your opponents most hate you to do here preflop, after they have all limped hoping to hit a flop cheaply? Therefore, what should you do? [/ QUOTE ] This is flawed logic for reasons that fnord mentioned, but especially because this is a sng and not a ring game. Dynamics are different. 
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#2
11-18-2005, 02:02 PM
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Re: AQ SB Hand
[ QUOTE ]
What would your opponents most hate you to do here preflop, after they have all limped hoping to hit a flop cheaply? Therefore, what should you do? [/ QUOTE ] PUSH ALL-IN!!!! Playing a big pot out of position with AQ = suckiness.
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#3
11-18-2005, 11:34 AM
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Re: AQ SB Hand
[ QUOTE ]
My problem with raising here, even raising a lot, is I will likely have multiple callers and likely miss the flop. Also, I would not say there is nearly that high a chance I have the best hand since I am behind all pairs, and players with pairs are not folding at this level in my (limited) experience. If I raise, there is a good chance they won't fold postflop, either, so I am left in a tough spot if I miss since a continuation is not very effective here, but if I hit I could easily stack someone with a middling pair (less chance if I hit the ace). [/ QUOTE ] I think raising here with AQ is -EV, for the above reasons. Maybe I play better postflop now, I dunno, but when I raised AQ out of the blinds it always hosed me. Maybe that's not the case in the buyins where Irie plays. The thing is, when you choose not to raise AQ, your hand strength is disguised. As far as everyone else knows, you voluntarily chose to put in 5 more chips - which you might do with any two. So everyone expects you to check this flop - do it! When it gets back to you, which it almost certainly will be with this many opponents, put in a nice sized checkraise designed to get draws to make a mistake. The checkraise is the awesome tool of the out of position player. Learn it, live it, love it.
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#4
11-18-2005, 11:52 AM
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Re: AQ SB Hand
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] My problem with raising here, even raising a lot, is I will likely have multiple callers and likely miss the flop. Also, I would not say there is nearly that high a chance I have the best hand since I am behind all pairs, and players with pairs are not folding at this level in my (limited) experience. If I raise, there is a good chance they won't fold postflop, either, so I am left in a tough spot if I miss since a continuation is not very effective here, but if I hit I could easily stack someone with a middling pair (less chance if I hit the ace). [/ QUOTE ] I think raising here with AQ is -EV, for the above reasons. Maybe I play better postflop now, I dunno, but when I raised AQ out of the blinds it always hosed me. Maybe that's not the case in the buyins where Irie plays. The thing is, when you choose not to raise AQ, your hand strength is disguised. As far as everyone else knows, you voluntarily chose to put in 5 more chips - which you might do with any two. So everyone expects you to check this flop - do it! When it gets back to you, which it almost certainly will be with this many opponents, put in a nice sized checkraise designed to get draws to make a mistake. The checkraise is the awesome tool of the out of position player. Learn it, live it, love it. [/ QUOTE ] This is tough though when your hand is disguised because then you're like oh sweet they're playing back at my tptk because they have no idea how strong I am. And then you get stacked by two pair or a set or something. Huge oversimplification, but you get the point. I raise here for what it's worth and what I wrote above is NOT my only justification.
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#5
11-18-2005, 11:52 AM
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Re: AQ SB Hand
[ QUOTE ]
I think raising here with AQ is -EV, for the above reasons. Maybe I play better postflop now, I dunno, but when I raised AQ out of the blinds it always hosed me. Maybe that's not the case in the buyins where Irie plays. [/ QUOTE ] I think you nailed it right there regarding the buyin level. At the higher buyin's, you can reasonably expect to narrow the field or even take it down pre-flop - which is nice since you're out of position. You are also gaining some information from anybody that calls. At the lower buyin's, it's not unusual for all of the limpers to happily call your raise. You're left with no more information than you had, the pot is now large, and you're out of position.
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#6
11-18-2005, 12:07 PM
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Re: AQ SB Hand
[ QUOTE ]
I think you nailed it right there regarding the buyin level. At the higher buyin's, you can reasonably expect to narrow the field or even take it down pre-flop - which is nice since you're out of position. You are also gaining some information from anybody that calls. At the lower buyin's, it's not unusual for all of the limpers to happily call your raise. You're left with no more information than you had, the pot is now large, and you're out of position. [/ QUOTE ] Exactly. And you're more likely to lose your stack to a set since the pot is already large on the flop (and a PP will call your raise anyway unless it's very large).
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#7
11-18-2005, 04:34 PM
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Re: AQ SB Hand
[ QUOTE ]
I think raising here with AQ is -EV, for the above reasons. Maybe I play better postflop now, I dunno, but when I raised AQ out of the blinds it always hosed me. [/ QUOTE ] How often did you check/fold the flop? I think the key to raising this preflop is the ability to not spew chips on the flop when it misses you but clearly could have hit someone else.
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#8
11-18-2005, 05:13 PM
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Re: AQ SB Hand
[ QUOTE ]
My problem with raising here, even raising a lot, is I will likely have multiple callers and likely miss the flop. Also, I would not say there is nearly that high a chance I have the best hand since I am behind all pairs, and players with pairs are not folding at this level in my (limited) experience. If I raise, there is a good chance they won't fold postflop, either, so I am left in a tough spot if I miss since a continuation is not very effective here, but if I hit I could easily stack someone with a middling pair (less chance if I hit the ace). So basicly, if I am raising I am only raising to clean up my hand for those times I hit and to get people mentally committed to the pot. I do this some times but I think complete here for 5 is fine, too. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, I have a feeling that I will not be able to convince everyone that most of the discussion in this thread is rubbish... so I will just make a brief comment here. Thinking about poker in the above way is very uncreative and limits your ability to play well from the blinds. "I don't want to raise because nobody will fold anyhow, and I'm behind all pairs, and a continuation bet won't work..." is a poisonous line of thought. When a hand like this comes along for me in the SB, I would be more likely to think "I have the best hand, I am going to raise, and if somebody calls I am likely to get chips from them whether I hit the flop or not." Blind play is crucial in SNGs, and I'm glad that this hand got me to think about it some more. I will either start a thread on blind play philosophy or post some hands similar to this one, but played very differently. Irieguy
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#9
11-18-2005, 05:18 PM
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Re: AQ SB Hand
[ QUOTE ]
Blind play is crucial in SNGs, and I'm glad that this hand got me to think about it some more. I will either start a thread on blind play philosophy or post some hands similar to this one, but played very differently. Irieguy [/ QUOTE ] That would be great. I limp here usually. Mostly because I'll get lots of callers at the 16's and 27's most of the time, and I'm not confident in my ability playing a big pot with lots of callers out of position. After my limp, I usually check raise this flop.
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#10
11-18-2005, 06:32 PM
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Re: AQ SB Hand
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] My problem with raising here, even raising a lot, is I will likely have multiple callers and likely miss the flop. Also, I would not say there is nearly that high a chance I have the best hand since I am behind all pairs, and players with pairs are not folding at this level in my (limited) experience. If I raise, there is a good chance they won't fold postflop, either, so I am left in a tough spot if I miss since a continuation is not very effective here, but if I hit I could easily stack someone with a middling pair (less chance if I hit the ace). So basicly, if I am raising I am only raising to clean up my hand for those times I hit and to get people mentally committed to the pot. I do this some times but I think complete here for 5 is fine, too. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, I have a feeling that I will not be able to convince everyone that most of the discussion in this thread is rubbish... so I will just make a brief comment here. Thinking about poker in the above way is very uncreative and limits your ability to play well from the blinds. "I don't want to raise because nobody will fold anyhow, and I'm behind all pairs, and a continuation bet won't work..." is a poisonous line of thought. When a hand like this comes along for me in the SB, I would be more likely to think "I have the best hand, I am going to raise, and if somebody calls I am likely to get chips from them whether I hit the flop or not." Blind play is crucial in SNGs, and I'm glad that this hand got me to think about it some more. I will either start a thread on blind play philosophy or post some hands similar to this one, but played very differently. Irieguy [/ QUOTE ] Yes. I think evidence is an excellent idea, rather than vague philosophical attacks on concrete statements, based on experience, made by posters that I (at least) respect. If you can provide such evidence, please accept my apologies for spewing so much "rubbish" and "poison" into this thread.
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