Not another Fold KK preflop post

[TheGrifter]

2.50/5 NL I'm on the button with black kings and ~360

UTG (375) raises to 25, folded around to me and I make it 75 straight. Blinds fold and UTG re-raises all-in in an instant. Your action.

I haven't seen much from UTG, all I know is that he sat with the max (500) and the only hand he lost seemed like an overpair v. set situation. I have not seen him raise preflop. Basically an unknown opponent.

[ML4L]

Hey Grifter,

I call. Against an unknown opponent, I would never fold here with anything near reasonably-sized stacks. I think that this is night and day compared to facing a limp-reraise...

Hope it worked out.

ML4L

[TheGrifter]

Actually, I did call in this situation.

The board had an Ace and a queen but it was no concern, the other player had K9.

I just posted this hand to illustrate that as crazy as games are today it is very rarely correct fold KK to a re-re-raise preflop, and almost never correct against an unknown opponent.

[TStoneMBD]

I am going to be honest here, while it seems ridiculous, I have never folded KK preflop in a NL cash game before. There are times when I've wanted to lay it down, but there are just too many times when your opponents are just pushing with a worse hand.

[TheGrifter]

I have folded it, but only because I knew the player and KNEW he had Aces. (As much as one can know) That said, it's pretty rare.

[ML4L]

Hey Grifter,

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I did call in this situation.

The board had an Ace and a queen but it was no concern, the other player had K9.

I just posted this hand to illustrate that as crazy as games are today it is very rarely correct fold KK to a re-re-raise preflop, and almost never correct against an unknown opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

It might be presumptuous of me to think that this post had something to do with me, but I'll repeat what I said.

Your hand bears ZERO similarity to mine except for the fact that we both had KK. And the fact that this wacko had K9 does not at all impact the frequency with which a player holds AA/KK after making a big limp-reraise.

ML4L

[The Ocho]

I agree with ML4L here. A re-re-raise is typically aces. A limp re-reraise from a typical player is just like dangling a neon sign that blinks "ACES." I don't care what I hold, KK or whatever, if I read a player for aces, I'll fold. Doesn't matter what my cards are. For better or for worse, I trust my reads.

An unknown opponent I treat as a good/decent opponent until proven otherwise. If he/she is gonna make a strong play at me preflop like that, I'm apt to give them credit for what they are representing. If they are a wacko, I'll find that out later, and make adjustments and outplay them in the future. Sure, I may get muscled out and make a "bad" fold every once in a while, but I realize that those mistakes are sometimes necessary in protecting myself from putting myself in more numerous bad situations.

By limp-re-raising or re-re-raising pre-flop, your opponent is basically telling you he has aces. Why not believe him?I figure just because a player is an unknown, it doesn't mean he is a maniac. Give a player credit, and give up a little possible equity now for greater equity later.

[TheGrifter]

ML4L,

This post was in no way a response to your post, but just a general note that just because someone acts strong before the flop doesn't mean they have a big hand. I actually wasn't even thinking about your post.

[TheGrifter]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with ML4L here. A re-re-raise is typically aces. A limp re-reraise from a typical player is just like dangling a neon sign that blinks "ACES." I don't care what I hold, KK or whatever, if I read a player for aces, I'll fold. Doesn't matter what my cards are. For better or for worse, I trust my reads.

An unknown opponent I treat as a good/decent opponent until proven otherwise. If he/she is gonna make a strong play at me preflop like that, I'm apt to give them credit for what they are representing. If they are a wacko, I'll find that out later, and make adjustments and outplay them in the future. Sure, I may get muscled out and make a "bad" fold every once in a while, but I realize that those mistakes are sometimes necessary in protecting myself from putting myself in more numerous bad situations.

By limp-re-raising or re-re-raising pre-flop, your opponent is basically telling you he has aces. Why not believe him?I figure just because a player is an unknown, it doesn't mean he is a maniac. Give a player credit, and give up a little possible equity now for greater equity later.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact is, sometimes he is a maniac...and sometimes he has Queens, or Jacks, or AK, or some other hand he can't get away from.

You're not just giving up a little equity by folding in these spots, is my point.

[JasonP530]

Unless you have very big stacks, or KNOW the other person has aces, you cant be wrong by calling. You can still win if you hit a K even if he does have aces. If he doesnt, hes the one in bad shape.