General strategy help - I am a player slightly in the red

[nihil]

I've been playing since april and have played several thousand hands (not much, I know) and ever so slowly watched my initial investment get eaten away initially, played a huge rush one evening after two months, and then watched that ever so slowly whittle away.

I've noticed a few things about my playing and was wondering if I could get some advice:

- I notice that a large portion of my losses are to straights. Some were to straights I simply didn't see and have become better about noticing them. More recently I get burned a lot by people making straights on garbage hands. People that will make their straight and then still play passively through the hand. How can I approach this problem I have?

- One area of play that I have never seemed to figure out is what to do when I have called pre-flop and then there is a raise behind me. If it's a hand I would only want to call with and would not cold call a raise, should I not be calling the raise after having called one bet?

- Finally, my biggest question is playing pot odds. Basically, can someone be a profitable player without playing the pot odds down to the number? When I'm playing a draw I usually call a bet when I feel that there are probably sufficient odds. I realize that I will need to be somewhat precise on this if I want to be a good player, but can a player be profitable without being precise on these odds? Namely, I'm wondering if a large hole in my game is not being precise and keeping track of the odds.

I realize that probably the best thing is to play more hands. Lots more hands. But I would greatly appreciate any advice to help me along as I go.

Thanks

[bisonbison]

1. You're probably selectively noticing when you're beat by straights. Post some hands.

2. If you have a hand worth limping, you almost certainly have a hand worth calling one more for.

3. I play without a precise knowledge of most of the math, but I know how to figure it if it's a close decision. If you're not willing to do the math, at least print out an odds chart and put it by your computer screen. Over time, you'll absorb it and be able to make most of these decisions more intuitively.


Playing more hands is good, but only if you're learning something from them. You need to start posting hands and responding to other people's posts. The vast majority of good posters on this site came here knowing very little proper strategy, and learned by throwing themselves into it and being willing to look dumb.

[radek2166]

Where can I print an odds chart from?

[papawawa]

As a relatively new player to the game, i have experienced some of the tendencies you've mentioned. Here's what I think:
-You losing to one particular hand or another is not the problem; its that you are oblivious to the POSSIBILITY that a better hand has been made. My advice would be to pay more attention to both the board and the betting patterns of your opponents. You have to charge people to "make straights on garbage hands" as well as fold decent hands when you realize you've been sucked out on. If you start applying this you will see an immediate improvement in your game.
-This is a such a vague question, you should really just read a book about it. The abridged version: It depends on (1)what you cards are, (2)your postion relative to the raiser, (3)and what you think of that raiser. The better your cards are, the more likely you are to call the raise. If you are in a better position and the raiser is good, be more inclined to fold; however in this same situation if he plays badly, be more inclined to call or even reraise. Finally, if the raiser is extremely loose, definetly at least call.
-Yes, pot odds are extrememly important. Yes, it is possible to estimate pot odds, although there really isn't a need when playing online - the pot size automated. And yes, you should be relatively precise in your pot odds calculations, again not that difficult on the PC.
My final bit of advice is to go out and get a book on the subject. A good one for beginners is Hold'em Poker by Sklansky. Good luck and wecome to the forum.

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
- I notice that a large portion of my losses are to straights. Some were to straights I simply didn't see and have become better about noticing them. More recently I get burned a lot by people making straights on garbage hands. People that will make their straight and then still play passively through the hand. How can I approach this problem I have?

[/ QUOTE ]
Realize that those people who catch unlikely straights with garbage hands are usually paying you off with garbage. Realize that everytime your passive opponent fails to get that extra bet out of you, he has saved you money. Don't save him money in the reverse situation.

[ QUOTE ]
- One area of play that I have never seemed to figure out is what to do when I have called pre-flop and then there is a raise behind me. If it's a hand I would only want to call with and would not cold call a raise, should I not be calling the raise after having called one bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
I will always call for one more bet. (Two more bets is another matter.) However, if there is a lot of pre-flop raising going on, tighten up in early/mid position to avoid this situation.

[ QUOTE ]
- Finally, my biggest question is playing pot odds. Basically, can someone be a profitable player without playing the pot odds down to the number? When I'm playing a draw I usually call a bet when I feel that there are probably sufficient odds. I realize that I will need to be somewhat precise on this if I want to be a good player, but can a player be profitable without being precise on these odds? Namely, I'm wondering if a large hole in my game is not being precise and keeping track of the odds.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you have the mentality of "big pot, call; small pot, fold", you probably do not have a big leak. Having said that, learn the odds for the most common draws. (approximately: two outs = 22-1, four outs = 11.5-1, five outs = 8.2-1, eight outs = 5-1, nine outs = 4-1, more than nine outs = almost always call.) More difficult is learning to count your outs and realizing when some of them might make someone else a bigger hand (and so should be discounted).

[ QUOTE ]
I realize that probably the best thing is to play more hands. Lots more hands. But I would greatly appreciate any advice to help me along as I go.

[/ QUOTE ]
As bison said, post some hands. Thinking about your play is worth at least as much as playing (especially after you have played a few thousand hands).

[tardigrade]

[ QUOTE ]
More recently I get burned a lot by people making straights on garbage hands

[/ QUOTE ]

It happens ... I wouldn't worry about that too much. Just make sure you are charging them the most you can when you are ahead and pay them as little as possible when they make their miracle draw.

[ QUOTE ]
One area of play that I have never seemed to figure out is what to do when I have called pre-flop and then there is a raise behind me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually will call a pf raise behind me except under fairly extreme circumstances. If you had odds to play something like 44 or 98s before the raise, you have as good odds after the raise, essentially, minus some implied odds. On the other hand, if you played something like ATo, then you may be playing a dominated hand. I still generally call unless the pot is quite small, but proceed with caution after the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, can someone be a profitable player without playing the pot odds down to the number?

[/ QUOTE ]

In-game pot odds are always an estimate anyway. You will almost never know your true odds, so the difference between 10% and 12% may not be critical. If you know most of the common situations like flush and straight draws, trips to full house, etc. and can get a quick rough count of your outs and use the 4/2 rule in a pinch, you should be close enough. What will ruin you is if you overestimate the value of your outs with overcards or the like. Just because your hand improves doesn't mean it's improving to the best hand, and many of your outs may be "dirty". Avoid marginal calls.

[CLC]

Str8s made by garbage hands and players who are passive when playing their Str8s are problems that you cannot have an effect on. They are gonna do what they want. You have to recognize the potential danger of the board and play according to the strength or potential of your own hand.

Calling the blind preflop and calling a raise after you entered is something that is dependent on the cards you have. Some raises are welcome and hoped for, others are a different story. It is often "right" to call the blind, only to fold to a reraise. Going to far is disaster waiting to happen.

It is GOOD to be able to keep track of the pot odds, implied odds, Outs for your hand, etc. These are traits learned through practice and time. Personaly, I think I have a good Idea of the odds as I play, but miss a few sometimes (I still need work). I think that "reasonable accuracy" is sufficient.

"... Play More Hands. Lots More Hands." -- The key to sucess is not MORE hands. It is Playing QUALITY hands PROPERLY and EFFECTIVELY. For example: Ace Ten suited. It can be played from any position. HOWEVER, from Early position it has only FAIR potential at best. From Middle position it is a little better, but IMO not significant. From Late position, however it is MUCH stronger. It is easier to play EFFECTIVELY from Late position than from Early position.

Read this forum, read some books, practice, post hands that you feel you played questionably. This is a wonderful place to get other peoples opinions. They are VERY helpful. Occasionally a little sarcastic [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img], but if you listen to what they are actually saying and not take it personally, you will learn a lot. They have helped and continue to help me daily.

[nihil]

All,

Thank you, I greatly appreciate the advice

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Where can I print an odds chart from?

[/ QUOTE ]

here's one that was posted recently:

odds chart

[Goon2]

Those times your opponents' "garbage hands" make them straights, realize you're not going to win every hand, even if you've played it correctly.

To feel better, pay attention to the stack held by the passive player who made his gutshot straight with 62o on the river in a small pot. Watch his stack slowly dwindle.