Play a Foxwoods hand with me

[CardSharpCook]

To add my 2 cents:

I'd consider two options on the flop:
1. pot it up front, fold to a raise, bet 2400 on the turn, fold to a raise, check the river, read the player to see if I should call the river bet or not.

2. Check/rz pot on the flop. Means I'll have put 3K in there. After that, I shrivel up into my shell and check down.

I don't really like option two because I only have one shot to win the pot - the 3K effort on the flop. After that, I can be bluffed out by anyone. Still, I think this will work 70% of the time, you'll be behind 20% of the time and end up folding. You'll be ahead 10% of the time and end up folding.

As you played it. CALL HIM DOWN!!!!!!!!!! River bet? CALL CALL CALL!!! But before you do, stare him down, grab three yellow chips (yellow is worth $1k) and lean across the table and whisper, "You know, sir, I AM a calling station." and then toss your chips into the pot. There is also the optional "MUAH HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA" to be used at your discretion.

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]
To add my 2 cents:

I'd consider two options on the flop:
1. pot it up front, fold to a raise, bet 2400 on the turn, fold to a raise, check the river, read the player to see if I should call the river bet or not.

2. Check/rz pot on the flop. Means I'll have put 3K in there. After that, I shrivel up into my shell and check down.

I don't really like option two because I only have one shot to win the pot - the 3K effort on the flop. After that, I can be bluffed out by anyone. Still, I think this will work 70% of the time, you'll be behind 20% of the time and end up folding. You'll be ahead 10% of the time and end up folding.

As you played it. CALL HIM DOWN!!!!!!!!!! River bet? CALL CALL CALL!!! But before you do, stare him down, grab three yellow chips (yellow is worth $1k) and lean across the table and whisper, "You know, sir, I AM a calling station." and then toss your chips into the pot. There is also the optional "MUAH HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA" to be used at your discretion.

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Hypothetical:

You pot it on flop, only BB calls. Is your line still 2400, fold to a raise? Can you explain your rational. I agree that leading is best play on the flop (dont like the risk/reward of a CR), I can see a check and evaluate line as well.

Once we are heads up on the turn against a strange player, with the nut draw, I think we are much more likely to get paid on a winning hand if we let him do the betting.

[CardSharpCook]

why are we giving BB more credit for a piece of this than anyone else? Yeah, I still bet out 2400. It is my hope that I can tell from BB's body language whether he is on the draw or just letting me bet once I bet the turn. This will allow me to call or fold appropriately on the river.

If I knew what the turn card was gonna be, I'd def. check/call. Talking to someone else about the flop of this hand and how to play trips from the SB I said, "the only safe cards are a K, or a 2-4. Everything else is a possible danger card." So yeah, dreamy turn card. The added benefit of killing AQ/AJ when the board pairs makes it even better than 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

I really don't like this hand. It is decent, but you are OOP. There is 10% of your stack in the middle, but it will take a 20-30% investment to bring it home. However, I'm not in the camp of the PF raise. ATs is a nice limping hand. You got 7-way action and you want to kill that??? No. Complete this one and chortle with glee in the anticipation of stacking someone with the nut flush. Chortling is much more fun then stacking a mere 1300 chips.

[A_PLUS]

From Sirio's read, I am presuming we should give him less credit than usual.

Once we get it heads up with him, I think betting 2400 makes it easy for him to make a good decision. We bet out after a King here, he is going to have a very hard time calling with JT, T7 (which is fine with me). But we also let weak Aces off the hook, and A8+ isnt going anywhere anyway. I am not overly worried about free cards, since our flush draw kills a few of his outs. I guess I dont see a many hands calling us that we are crazy about, but I could see a few betting into us.

[colson10]

[ QUOTE ]

As you played it. CALL HIM DOWN!!!!!!!!!! River bet? CALL CALL CALL!!! But before you do, stare him down, grab three yellow chips (yellow is worth $1k) and lean across the table and whisper, "You know, sir, I AM a calling station." and then toss your chips into the pot. There is also the optional "MUAH HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA" to be used at your discretion.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, agreed.

[Pepsquad]

The problem with no aggression EVER during this hand is that the check-calling just fuels villains confidence in his Ax. The turn was a great card to go ahead and lead out. I play the flop exactly as you did. I bet the pot on the turn and I'm done with the hand unimproved.

This is a great hand to analyze. I doubt I’d play it the same way every time.

Preflop: I love the call preflop. Seven players and I’m hoping to take down a monster pot. I seriously hate a raise here OOP. I’d call pretty much every time here.

Flop: I don’t like the board, especially given all those limpers, most of whom certainly have something other than an ace and I don’t wanna play guessing games OOP whether someone has a str8 draw or a set. I check and am looking for a good excuse to fold, such as 1) a bet and a raise 2) pot sized bet from any position—early position bet is probably strong and a late position bet is too expensive to raise given the added possibility of a monster behind us. A late position bet of less than pot I am 35/65 pot sized raise or fold. If we make this raise I don’t see how there can be a turn card unless we are way behind.

As it played out, I like to call and would plan to lead out ¾ pot the turn and fold to a raise, which might be what you were planning to do until the diamond stopped you. This is what I hate about being OOP. You don’t want to be taken off your draw and c/c is an option and certainly would do that some of the time, but consider another play you should make here a certain % of time (only when heads-up):

<font color="red"> With 3400 in the pot, bet 4K here. True, if he has a set he may take you off the draw but that is a calculated risk (remember he is only taking you off a draw that will miss most of the time) and in that case he was probably gonna take you off it if you checked to him. He’s probably not looking down at A9/A8 and taking you off your draw with it if you bet 4K but might if you check. Decent chance he lays down AQ/AJ maybe 89s, as well as JT and any worse ace, and being OOP you are happy to take the pot. If he simply calls, you can’t possibly be ahead but could spike the river and take it down. </font>

As played, his turn bet is very strange but you did say he played “weird”. Not sure what to make of it. I can’t put him on a well-played hand here and a c/r here is very costly and we are getting a great price to see our draw so take it.

I’d have to call the river. If he shows 88, 99, AK, 89, then consider it a loan. Best guess is he shows you Ah with a suited 7, T, or J kicker.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
From Sirio's read, I am presuming we should give him less credit than usual.

Once we get it heads up with him, I think betting 2400 makes it easy for him to make a good decision. We bet out after a King here, he is going to have a very hard time calling with JT, T7 (which is fine with me). But we also let weak Aces off the hook, and A8+ isnt going anywhere anyway. I am not overly worried about free cards, since our flush draw kills a few of his outs. I guess I dont see a many hands calling us that we are crazy about, but I could see a few betting into us.

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That is sort of the point of the size of the bet. I am letting him get away from his str8 draw by making him pay twice as much as he should, or I am letting him fold 5 out hands. That's what we are looking at here, he has 5-8 outs or we have none (because if he likes his hand, do we have ANY outs on the turn?). So we are acting "as if" our hand is good. We are betting an amount that is incorrect to call, induces folds from most hands, but still gets some incorrect calls. OR he leaves us with an easy decision by raising us. (this is before we know the turn is the K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) We want this hand to be over with as soon as possible. It is ugly, it is scary, and it isn't the way I'd choose to see my stack grow. So we give him an easy decision so that our decision is even easier.

[colson10]

[ QUOTE ]
check-calling just fuels villains confidence in his Ax.

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And that's a bad thing? Being the aggressor isn't always the best play, and this can be especially true when out of position.

I like how sirio played it. If the opponent had bet more on the turn then I think there might be some merit to c/ring. As is, I think check calling the turn is easily the best play. If the turn wasn't a diamond then betting might be better. After picking up the diamond draw, betting out and having to fold the turn would be tragic, IMO.

And I'm definitely calling the river bet without some sort of read on my opponent.

[A_PLUS]

Brendan,

I am interested in your play AFTER you see the Kd. I can see the merits of going in planning to bet the turn with a lot of boards, but this turn card made our situation much better. We agree that the King was unlikely to helo him, we most likely can eliminate 1-2 of his outs, and give ourself 9 outs if we are behind. + the split pot outs

So, if he has AX, I want more money in the pot, check calling may be the only way to accomplish this.

If he has AQ, AJ betting may induce a raise or a call, we would prefer he raise, so we can fold, but if he calls, we are in a tough spot on the river unless a diamond falls.

If he has a OE Sd, he will probably fold, which I am fairly indifferent towards.

In a nutshell, his range for betting is wider than his range for calling, and he only folds the hands we want him to.

It is a fine line though. There are many situations like this in a MTT, and taking the passive (and indirectly pot building line) with so so hands can be a recipe for disaster, if he was a tight player (or had a strong hand read) I will check, call with my draw if it justifies, but assume that I need a flush (maybe 2p to continue on the river.