WTSD%

[MarkD]

I typically don't make stat posts but this is one stat I've always been curious about. In the past I have seen a lot of people on this board post what I consider to be very high WTSD% numbers. I've seen people post numbers close to 40% and some even higher.

All of the following are from the Party 15 game.

My numbers over the past 7500 hands are (since mid approximately mid june):
WTSD = 30.76
W$SD = 58.1

From January to Mid-April I ran very bad (and moved down for a while) and my numbers for this period are (total hands = 14906):
WTSD = 31.76
W$SD = 54.63

My numbers over the past 48500 hands are:
WTSD = 30.2
W$SD = 51.72

This is the first time that I have ever looked at these numbers in this way before. It seems that the WTSD stat is fairly consistenet for my game (and is much lower than many of yours) and has little impact on my bottom line, whereas the W$SD has a large impact on my bottom line (which it obviously should).

Now, what I'm wondering is what are some of you winning 15/30 or higher players seeing for your WTSD stat? I'm mainly interested in 7-10 handed games (although I did not filter my stats) as I believe your WTSD should be higher short handed.

And, for those of you with much higher WTSD statistics I am curious what you feel you do differently than I might be doing. Obviously you don't know how I play and I don't know how you play but I am curious about any hypothesis you may have as to what the difference in styles may be.

I feel that, if my stat is much lower than it should be this could be a large leak in my development as a player because if I am folding too much post-flop I will be easy to exploit as I move up in limits.

ps. I have tried to raise this number in the past and have not been successful. I felt as if I was paying off much too often with little benefit and also felt like I was probably costing myself money.

edit: Edited to fix a date and add a number of hands.

[Nightwish]

The thing about the WTSD stat is that you cannot look at it in a vacuum. You obviously cannot go to showdown if you don't even see the flop, so you need to look at this number in relation to your Saw Flop All Hands (SFAH) stat, which itself depends on your VP$IP and the aggression of the other players.

But as a first-order approximation, let's just look at VP$IP since that's what most people look at. As your VP$IP increases, your WTSD must decrease because you'll be playing more and more marginal hands that are more likely to need significant help on the flop. And the converse holds true as well.

So the question is: what is your VP$IP?

FWIW, my WTSD in the Party 15 was 34.81 over 100K+ hands. But then my VP$IP was only 14.5 -- way lower than many people here suggest.

[MarkD]

Nightwish,

Yes, you are right that I can't look at this number in a vacuum. I wish I could edit my post but it's too late.

My VPIP is currently: 21.48%. Lately I have been thinking that this may be a tad high. I would actually like to see it around 19-20 but I don't feel too bad with it at 21.5%.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
Nightwish,

Yes, you are right that I can't look at this number in a vacuum. I wish I could edit my post but it's too late.

My VPIP is currently: 21.48%. Lately I have been thinking that this may be a tad high. I would actually like to see it around 19-20 but I don't feel too bad with it at 21.5%.

[/ QUOTE ]
My guess is that your WTSD is actually alright for someone whose VP$IP is above 21.

[DpR]

for the 15 i think 35% w/a 19vpip is where you want to be.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
for the 15 i think 35% w/a 19vpip is where you want to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you say that and how do you achieve it (if those are your numbers)? If my WTSD is too low, and hence exploitable, then I want to know why and am looking for possible things to look at it.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]


Why do you say that and how do you achieve it (if those are your numbers)? If my WTSD is too low, and hence exploitable, then I want to know why and am looking for possible things to look at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly don't want to speak for anybody here, but one thing you may want to consider is how often you're betting/folding to a turn raise (both with and with out position) head up or 3 way when you have a good/decent holding?

Alot of times in this spot it can be better to just c/c, or check behind on the turn and let them bluff at you on the river, instead of trying to squeeze out a thin value bet with something like 2nd pair. BK and Schneids both mentioned this in previous, seperate threads.

I'm probably way off, but that might be something to look at.

lf

[mosta]

these stats always baffled me too in the same way, when I'd see numbers from very successful players for WtoSD W$SF W$SD.
for the sake of comparison, in my current DB of 30,000 hands I'm:
vpip 18%
pfr 11.7%
WtoSD 36%
W$SD 55%
W$SF 39% (and this from a good run)

the one that always threw me off was the supposed top players with W$SD under 50%. but the game texture has changed now with the 30-60 out there, so maybe their numbers would change.

[Lestat]

What's your PFR%? I'm betting it's near or below 8%.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
I certainly don't want to speak for anybody here, but one thing you may want to consider is how often you're betting/folding to a turn raise (both with and with out position) head up or 3 way when you have a good/decent holding?

Alot of times in this spot it can be better to just c/c, or check behind on the turn and let them bluff at you on the river, instead of trying to squeeze out a thin value bet with something like 2nd pair. BK and Schneids both mentioned this in previous, seperate threads.

I'm probably way off, but that might be something to look at.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually something I have been thinking about a lot lately. It's exactly where I thought I might be leaking as I am betting / folding on the turn a fair bit... it will take a while to change it in the right spots I think though.