How bad do I suck at SH PLO/8

[TGoldman]

Paradise Poker Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.50 BB (3 handed) converter

Hero ($101.00)
Button ($218.75)
SB ($93.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
Button calls $1, SB (poster) completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3.5</font>, Button calls $3, SB calls $3.

Flop: ($12) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5</font>, Button calls $5, SB calls $5.

Turn: ($27) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $27</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $108</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $65 and is all-in.

Alright, sorry this post is mostly out of frustration. I know, I probably should have bet the pot on the flop. But does anyone fold to the turn raise all-in? Do you bet less than the pot on the turn? I know the PLO/8 suckers blame bad luck for their losses, so I need someone else to tell me that I'm unlucky and I can escape for now from the reality that I suck.

[Burdzthewurd]

Doesn't matter if you bet the pot, he's still going to call with the nut flush draw on the flop, and still going to set you all-in on the turn with two to a low. Tough break.

[gergery]

I probably would not have raised from the BB with that hand as you are out of position, but others would.

I would never bet less than full pot bet on the flop. If they have A-hi flush they will call and not be getting pot odds (tho will have implied odds with your hand)

On the turn, what is your objective in betting? A/K hi-flush won't fold at low limits, J-hi flush or worse is unlikely to call. You don't mind weaker A2's staying in. So you are really only trying to make a set pay. But a set could well have raised you on the flop, whereas nutflush would be unlikely to. Net, I'd probably check. Once you are raised, you have to fold.

-g

[TGoldman]

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I probably would not have raised from the BB with that hand as you are out of position, but others would.

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I wouldn't raise in a full game with this hand OOP, but shorthanded I wanted to mix it up a bit.

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I would never bet less than full pot bet on the flop. If they have A-hi flush they will call and not be getting pot odds (tho will have implied odds with your hand)

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Hee haw. Definitely a donk-bet on my part.

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On the turn, what is your objective in betting? A/K hi-flush won't fold at low limits, J-hi flush or worse is unlikely to call. You don't mind weaker A2's staying in. So you are really only trying to make a set pay. But a set could well have raised you on the flop, whereas nutflush would be unlikely to. Net, I'd probably check. Once you are raised, you have to fold.

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A similar thought process flashed through my mind... As my timer started beeping, I decided "value bet" as I bet the pot. In retrospect, you're right there isn't much value in a bet that a worse hand isn't going to call, but better hands will pop me for my stack. Although I don't fear a weaker A2, I'd like for them to pay for their draw up front in case the low doesn't hit. You're right about there being little value against a smaller flush or straight. The part that bugs me is that I can't decide if I was just unlucky to run into a bigger flush (FYI villain held Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) or if I played it poorly. It's probably a mixture of both more on the side of me playing poorly.

Ultimately, I need more discipline in my game. I'm good at being patient with my hand selection pre-flop, but I have a hard time laying these kind of hands down. It makes me sick because most of the time I know I'm probably beat but then I look at my hand and think, "Look at my hand! I have the 3rd nut flush and the nut-low draw with some counterfeit protection. Whatchu got, punk?!" Of course on the turn I was a 3:1 dog drawing dead on the high side with all of my equity coming from the low.

[emptyshell]

I would have check-called the turn. As it was played, I wouldn't fold to the Button's allin raise. It's $65 to you for a pot of $162. 2.5 to 1 are pretty good pot odds. I would rationalize it as you have a good shot at the low and you just might be good on the high side as well. (There's some chance this is a dry ace bluff or some idiot raising a poor flush because it's shorthanded.)

[Ribbo]

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I probably would not have raised from the BB with that hand as you are out of position, but others would.

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Position is far less relevant 3 handed, raising the best hand is far more relevant. Raise, if you get reraised, raise them back, they don't have AA and will fold.
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On the turn, I'd probably check. Once you are raised, you have to fold.

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You will get chewed up alive in shorthanded games playing like this. Check folding a queen high flush 3 handed to any bet from the button? Do you even know how to play the game? Bet the pot on the turn and fold to the reraise. The chance of one of the other 2 players having the suited ace of hearts is around 1 in 10. If they have a king of hearts suited then you want to put pressure on them to fold.
But just checking the turn and folding to ANY bet is quite frankly weak and utterly terrible 3 handed. If I had the button I would be betting any flush if checked to me, even 3 high, since it's likely good at this point against 2 checkers.

[Ribbo]

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I would have check-called the turn. As it was played, I wouldn't fold to the Button's allin raise. It's $65 to you for a pot of $162. 2.5 to 1 are pretty good pot odds. I would rationalize it as you have a good shot at the low and you just might be good on the high side as well. (There's some chance this is a dry ace bluff or some idiot raising a poor flush because it's shorthanded.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Check calling the turn is a far better option than check folding as the weak greg suggested. Folding this hand on the turn is not an option if you check it. Folding can be an option if you have bet it and gotten raised. The reasons why are obvious if you are any good.

[gergery]

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I probably would not have raised from the BB with that hand as you are out of position, but others would.

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Position is far less relevant 3 handed, raising the best hand is far more relevant. Raise, if you get reraised, raise them back, they don't have AA and will fold.
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On the turn, I'd probably check-call . Once you bet and are raised, you have to fold.

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You will get chewed up alive in shorthanded games playing like this.

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I clarified my post, so those who don't understand the implications of an opponent betting vs. raising will not misunderstand.

[gergery]

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I probably would not have raised from the BB with that hand as you are out of position, but others would.

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I wouldn't raise in a full game with this hand OOP, but shorthanded I wanted to mix it up a bit.

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I would never bet less than full pot bet on the flop. If they have A-hi flush they will call and not be getting pot odds (tho will have implied odds with your hand)

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Hee haw. Definitely a donk-bet on my part.

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On the turn, what is your objective in betting? A/K hi-flush won't fold at low limits, J-hi flush or worse is unlikely to call. You don't mind weaker A2's staying in. So you are really only trying to make a set pay. But a set could well have raised you on the flop, whereas nutflush would be unlikely to. Net, I'd probably check. Once you are raised, you have to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
A similar thought process flashed through my mind... As my timer started beeping, I decided "value bet" as I bet the pot. In retrospect, you're right there isn't much value in a bet that a worse hand isn't going to call, but better hands will pop me for my stack. Although I don't fear a weaker A2, I'd like for them to pay for their draw up front in case the low doesn't hit. You're right about there being little value against a smaller flush or straight. The part that bugs me is that I can't decide if I was just unlucky to run into a bigger flush (FYI villain held Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) or if I played it poorly. It's probably a mixture of both more on the side of me playing poorly.

Ultimately, I need more discipline in my game. I'm good at being patient with my hand selection pre-flop, but I have a hard time laying these kind of hands down. It makes me sick because most of the time I know I'm probably beat but then I look at my hand and think, "Look at my hand! I have the 3rd nut flush and the nut-low draw with some counterfeit protection. Whatchu got, punk?!" Of course on the turn I was a 3:1 dog drawing dead on the high side with all of my equity coming from the low.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, for some reason i just assumed 6-handed here. If you're 3 handed then i probably would raise. and my advice on later streets stands but it is a much closer decision to fold to the raise --- against some i definitely call. And you must add a big caveat that shorthanded is so much about your opponents and less about cards so its more difficult to offer good advice as fewer players are left.

[Eric P]

This hand was honestly played pretty poorly. Your call on the turn is fairly awful, and if you were that intent on seeing the river, then check-call (which actually might be the best play i think.) if you don't get there on the low end and he pots the river, you fold then. If you do get the nut low make sure to bet it, cause if by some fluke you were winning on the high he will call thinking you just made a low
Betting the turn isn't so bad, but calling the pot-raise is without a doubt a bad idea, you are winning on the high side (a set-bluffing a flush) maybe 1/6 times, and you need the low to get there still. Just fold it, you can chop these guys up later when you have something good